Overview
In part II, we really started to get some nice results and have begun to really understand the basic system behind enmity - namely finding a method that quantifies actions, determining that there are 2 types of enmity, and that at least one of these types caps. In this post, I'll go over more testing which attempts to help further grasp the overall concept of enmity. I'll also go over methods of testing and obtaining enmity values for anyone interested in trying to find unique numbers yourself.
General ideas that I'll go over in this post for anyone looking for a brief overview...
- The exact unit value of the cumulative enmity (non-decaying hate) cap is found
- A test to show that cumulative (non-decay) and volatile (decay) hate act seperately is shown
- A test to show that logging out or zoning does not immediately reset all enmity is shown
- A test is performed to help suggest that enmity per action simple stack or add upon each other is done
- A few examples of how to go about obtaining cumulative enmity values are determined
I guess the key to this post will be to show that the 2 types of hate act seperately - that is, the value of one does not effect the properties or values of the other. Knowing this, we can start to focus on obtaining values for various spells, especially those of particular interest to tanking. I will go over a few methods for determining the cumulative enmity of any ability in case anyone wants to learn how to test his themself.
Once again, this topic doesn't lend much chance at pictures, so sorry!
Previous: Enmity Testing (Part II)
Next: Enmity Testing (Part IV)
Enmity Table
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Naming Convention
A lot of names are being thrown out right now for the types of hate. In an effort to try to keep things consistant, I ask that everyone who posts here or refers to here use the following terms and definitions...
- Cumulative Enmity (CE) - the enmity of an action that does not decay naturally over time
- Volatile Enmity (VE) - the enmity of an action that does decay naturally over time
- Total Enmity (TE) - the sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity; the highest determines who has "hate"
- Hate - a term for who the enemy is currently focusing actions on; NOT a quantifiable term
- Hate List - the list of players of which could take "hate"; "top of the hate list" is who has "hate"
- "Enmity" (E) - the "base unit" of enmity; by definition - "the enmity generated using Cure 1 for 0 HP"
This naming convention is generally consistant with the JP Wiki except for the Total Enmity term. I would prefer not to use the word "hate" too often when formally going over the system because SE chooses not to use that word - it's really just something the community has used, not what SE uses. The "proper" term in the game is "Enmity", so I prefer to stick to that. The unit I just called "Enmity", so it's easy to say - like "you need 3,000 more Enmity to reach the cap". Some examples using this system...
- Dispel's CE (Cumulative Enmity) is 320 E
- Provoke's CE is 1 E, while its VE (Volatile Enmity) is greater than 1 E
- The VE of any player given infinite time is always 0 E
- Given two players at the "top of the hate list" have the same TE, the most recent action will determine "hate"
- Short-hand method - "Dispel has 320CE and unknown VE"
I hope to maintain a pretty good nomenclature for this as soon as possible. Please try to follow this so we can remain consistant and better show results!
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Conclusions
I think a lot of great strides were made in part II of the testing on ths blog. At this point, I feel we are ready to do an extensive search of all abilities with a Cumulative Enmity greater than 1 CE. Any help in performing this would be greatly appreciated. At this point in time, we have started a small list of known Cumulative Enmity values from certain actions, abilities, or spells. This does not include ones where CE was equal to 1.
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* Aspir was tested using a 0 MP Aspir - whether MP drained affects hate has not been tested
** Cure V is the same amount of Cumulative Enmity regardless of the amount of HP cured
*** Sleepga spells grant the same hate regardless of number of targets hit (tested)
These actions have Volatile Enmity as well! At this time, we are just looking at the Cumulative Enmity!
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I hope others can use this data to try to find more data values. Feel free to post any results you get if you're interested in contributing. As I have done previously, I will cite when the information is used on here if you happen to give your FFXI Name and Server. Ashira and I are really excited about this and I hope others will help contribute as well. There are way too many spells to do a full set of testing by just the 2 of us, so we do need some help! In particular, neither of us has a BLU, so if there are any willing testers with 75 BLU, that would be great.
Here is a summary of findings for those too lazy to disect the tests...
- The Cumulative Enmity Cap is exactly 10,000 CE
- Cumulative and Volatile Enmity act as seperate entities
- An Action can produce both Cumulative and Volatile Enmity, but it MUST produce at least 1 CE
- Zoning and Logging Off do not immediately "reset hate"
I know these posts started out pretty dry, but I hope others see the breakthroughs we've made on the subject of Enmity now. Already, I can think of a number of useful strategies - both tanking and non-tanking which can be developed with just the limited data we have right now. I really hope that this list above can be expanded quickly with the help of the endgame community.
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Pic of the Day
While Saku and I go 0/40+ on X's Knife...
Drama Thread of the Day
http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=pos
Diabolos Server Drama - botting, kickings, screenshots, and fairly high emo level from OP.
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In part II, we really started to get some nice results and have begun to really understand the basic system behind enmity - namely finding a method that quantifies actions, determining that there are 2 types of enmity, and that at least one of these types caps. In this post, I'll go over more testing which attempts to help further grasp the overall concept of enmity. I'll also go over methods of testing and obtaining enmity values for anyone interested in trying to find unique numbers yourself.
General ideas that I'll go over in this post for anyone looking for a brief overview...
- The exact unit value of the cumulative enmity (non-decaying hate) cap is found
- A test to show that cumulative (non-decay) and volatile (decay) hate act seperately is shown
- A test to show that logging out or zoning does not immediately reset all enmity is shown
- A test is performed to help suggest that enmity per action simple stack or add upon each other is done
- A few examples of how to go about obtaining cumulative enmity values are determined
I guess the key to this post will be to show that the 2 types of hate act seperately - that is, the value of one does not effect the properties or values of the other. Knowing this, we can start to focus on obtaining values for various spells, especially those of particular interest to tanking. I will go over a few methods for determining the cumulative enmity of any ability in case anyone wants to learn how to test his themself.
Once again, this topic doesn't lend much chance at pictures, so sorry!
Previous: Enmity Testing (Part II)
Next: Enmity Testing (Part IV)
Enmity Table
________________________________________
Naming Convention
A lot of names are being thrown out right now for the types of hate. In an effort to try to keep things consistant, I ask that everyone who posts here or refers to here use the following terms and definitions...
- Cumulative Enmity (CE) - the enmity of an action that does not decay naturally over time
- Volatile Enmity (VE) - the enmity of an action that does decay naturally over time
- Total Enmity (TE) - the sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity; the highest determines who has "hate"
- Hate - a term for who the enemy is currently focusing actions on; NOT a quantifiable term
- Hate List - the list of players of which could take "hate"; "top of the hate list" is who has "hate"
- "Enmity" (E) - the "base unit" of enmity; by definition - "the enmity generated using Cure 1 for 0 HP"
This naming convention is generally consistant with the JP Wiki except for the Total Enmity term. I would prefer not to use the word "hate" too often when formally going over the system because SE chooses not to use that word - it's really just something the community has used, not what SE uses. The "proper" term in the game is "Enmity", so I prefer to stick to that. The unit I just called "Enmity", so it's easy to say - like "you need 3,000 more Enmity to reach the cap". Some examples using this system...
- Dispel's CE (Cumulative Enmity) is 320 E
- Provoke's CE is 1 E, while its VE (Volatile Enmity) is greater than 1 E
- The VE of any player given infinite time is always 0 E
- Given two players at the "top of the hate list" have the same TE, the most recent action will determine "hate"
- Short-hand method - "Dispel has 320CE and unknown VE"
I hope to maintain a pretty good nomenclature for this as soon as possible. Please try to follow this so we can remain consistant and better show results!
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Test 9
What is the exact "hard cap" of Cumulative Enmity (CE) in Enmity Units (E)?
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members with ability in question (RDM/NIN, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place
- Puller pulls with Silence while the 2 test characters move to 0.7 distance (same distance)
- Test character 1 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches Cap: see test 8)
- Wait 2 minutes for any possible long term decay to occur
- Test character 2 casts Dispel 31 times (9,920 E: see test 7)
At this point, character 2 will take hate momentarily but permanently lose hate after a few seconds.
- Test character 2 casts Cure 1 for 0 HP until hate is taken
- Count the number of Cure 1 for 0 HP were required to take hate
The Cumulative Enmity Cap will be 9,920 E + the number of Cures Counted
Number of Cure 1 for 0 HP Required: 80
Cumulative Enmity Cap = 9,920E + 80 E = 10,000 E
If you perform this, you will actually get hate at exactly 80 cures, meaning the "cap" of Cumulative Enmity is indeed exactly 10,000 E - if you Cure 1 someone with hate for 0 HP 10,000 times in a row you will reach the Cumulative Enmity cap. This is extremely good news to me as it suggests that the base units we are using "E" may indeed be the actual machine value unit used in this game. It would seem like a huge coincedence otherwise.
Conclusion
The Cumulative Enmity Cap is exactly 10,000 E.
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What is the exact "hard cap" of Cumulative Enmity (CE) in Enmity Units (E)?
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members with ability in question (RDM/NIN, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place
- Puller pulls with Silence while the 2 test characters move to 0.7 distance (same distance)
- Test character 1 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches Cap: see test 8)
- Wait 2 minutes for any possible long term decay to occur
- Test character 2 casts Dispel 31 times (9,920 E: see test 7)
At this point, character 2 will take hate momentarily but permanently lose hate after a few seconds.
- Test character 2 casts Cure 1 for 0 HP until hate is taken
- Count the number of Cure 1 for 0 HP were required to take hate
The Cumulative Enmity Cap will be 9,920 E + the number of Cures Counted
Number of Cure 1 for 0 HP Required: 80
Cumulative Enmity Cap = 9,920E + 80 E = 10,000 E
If you perform this, you will actually get hate at exactly 80 cures, meaning the "cap" of Cumulative Enmity is indeed exactly 10,000 E - if you Cure 1 someone with hate for 0 HP 10,000 times in a row you will reach the Cumulative Enmity cap. This is extremely good news to me as it suggests that the base units we are using "E" may indeed be the actual machine value unit used in this game. It would seem like a huge coincedence otherwise.
Conclusion
The Cumulative Enmity Cap is exactly 10,000 E.
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Test 10
Is it possible to gain Volatile Enmity when Cumulative Enmity is capped?
H0: It is still possible to gain Volatile Enmity when Cumulative Enmity is capped
H1: It is not possible to gain Volatile Enmity when Cumulative Enmity is capped
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members with ability in question (RDM/WAR, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place
- Puller pulls with Silence while the 2 test characters move to 0.7 distance (same distance)
- Test character 1 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches cap)
- Test character 2 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches cap)
- Character 1 uses Provoke
- Character 2 quickly follows using Blind
- Provoke and Blind both produce fairly strong amounts of Volatile Enmity, but Provoke's is much higher
- Document who has hate immediately after character 2 uses Blind
H0: Player 1 will still maintain hate immediately after character 2 used blind
H1: Player 2 will take hate immediately after using Blind
This test shows that even if Cumulative Enmity has been capped Volatile Enmity can still be gained. This supports the idea of 2 seperately run Enmity systems which are then pooled at the end (Total Enmity, TE). If this were not true, than player 2 should have taken hate simply because they were both at cap and by virtue of casting the most recent action, should have taken hate. The fact that player 1 still maintained hate suggests that Volatile Enmity was higher at the time and that played a role in the final hate determination.
This test cannot conclusively prove that these 2 hate systems act completely seperately; however, it does strongly support that claim.
Conclusion
Volatile Enmity can still be gained even once Cumulative Enmity has been capped.
Hate is decided by the sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity (Total Enmity).
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Is it possible to gain Volatile Enmity when Cumulative Enmity is capped?
H0: It is still possible to gain Volatile Enmity when Cumulative Enmity is capped
H1: It is not possible to gain Volatile Enmity when Cumulative Enmity is capped
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members with ability in question (RDM/WAR, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place
- Puller pulls with Silence while the 2 test characters move to 0.7 distance (same distance)
- Test character 1 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches cap)
- Test character 2 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches cap)
- Character 1 uses Provoke
- Character 2 quickly follows using Blind
- Provoke and Blind both produce fairly strong amounts of Volatile Enmity, but Provoke's is much higher
- Document who has hate immediately after character 2 uses Blind
H0: Player 1 will still maintain hate immediately after character 2 used blind
H1: Player 2 will take hate immediately after using Blind
This test shows that even if Cumulative Enmity has been capped Volatile Enmity can still be gained. This supports the idea of 2 seperately run Enmity systems which are then pooled at the end (Total Enmity, TE). If this were not true, than player 2 should have taken hate simply because they were both at cap and by virtue of casting the most recent action, should have taken hate. The fact that player 1 still maintained hate suggests that Volatile Enmity was higher at the time and that played a role in the final hate determination.
This test cannot conclusively prove that these 2 hate systems act completely seperately; however, it does strongly support that claim.
Conclusion
Volatile Enmity can still be gained even once Cumulative Enmity has been capped.
Hate is decided by the sum of Cumulative and Volatile Enmity (Total Enmity).
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Test 11A
Does "logging out" immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove a player from the "hate list"?
H0: Logging out does not immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove the player from the hate list
H1: Logging out does immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove the player from the hate list
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members with ability in question (RDM/WAR, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place
- Puller pulls with Silence while the 2 test characters move to 0.7 distance (same distance)
- Test character 1 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches cap)
- Test character 2 casts Dispel 1 time
- Character 1 "logs off" with hate
- Character 1 immediately logs back on
- Character 1 casts Cure 1 for 0 HP on Character 2
H0: Player 1 will take hate immediately after that Cure 1 for 0 HP
H1: Player 2 will maintain hate after the Cure 1 for 0 HP
This test shows that logging off and returning is NOT a good way to "reset hate". Obviously most players know from experience that logging off is a good method of enmity reduction; however, this test shows that the act of logging off does not immediately reset your enmity. This test does not go into the possible methods of enmity decay that logging out produces; it only shows that the act of logging out is not an instantaneous "hate reset".
I think it is interesting to note... It is obvious that Player 1 still has much higher hate than Player 2 in this test, but Player 1 must perform an action to receive hate back. This is a bit odd because the player with the highest enmity on the mob's list is NOT the one with hate.
Test 11B
Does "zoning" immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove a player from the "hate list"?
Testing Setup:
Repeat the testing setup of 10A, except instead of logging out, simply zone out. This experiment must be conducted right at a zone in order to limit the possible effects of Distance changes.
Result: Similar to 11A - player 1 will retake hate upon re-entering the zone
Conclusion
"Zoning" or "Logging Out" does not immediately reset Enmity to 0.
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Does "logging out" immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove a player from the "hate list"?
H0: Logging out does not immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove the player from the hate list
H1: Logging out does immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove the player from the hate list
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members with ability in question (RDM/WAR, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place
- Puller pulls with Silence while the 2 test characters move to 0.7 distance (same distance)
- Test character 1 casts Dispel 32 times (reaches cap)
- Test character 2 casts Dispel 1 time
- Character 1 "logs off" with hate
- Character 1 immediately logs back on
- Character 1 casts Cure 1 for 0 HP on Character 2
H0: Player 1 will take hate immediately after that Cure 1 for 0 HP
H1: Player 2 will maintain hate after the Cure 1 for 0 HP
This test shows that logging off and returning is NOT a good way to "reset hate". Obviously most players know from experience that logging off is a good method of enmity reduction; however, this test shows that the act of logging off does not immediately reset your enmity. This test does not go into the possible methods of enmity decay that logging out produces; it only shows that the act of logging out is not an instantaneous "hate reset".
I think it is interesting to note... It is obvious that Player 1 still has much higher hate than Player 2 in this test, but Player 1 must perform an action to receive hate back. This is a bit odd because the player with the highest enmity on the mob's list is NOT the one with hate.
Test 11B
Does "zoning" immediately reduce TE to 0 and remove a player from the "hate list"?
Testing Setup:
Repeat the testing setup of 10A, except instead of logging out, simply zone out. This experiment must be conducted right at a zone in order to limit the possible effects of Distance changes.
Result: Similar to 11A - player 1 will retake hate upon re-entering the zone
Conclusion
"Zoning" or "Logging Out" does not immediately reset Enmity to 0.
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Determining Cumulative Enmity
At this point in time, I would prefer to focus more on Cumulative Enmity as it is easier to maintain controls for these kinds of tests. At this point, I believe that the knowledge gained from the first 11 tests is adequate to find the Cumulative Enmity of any action that does not have a damage or cured value associated with it. These tests will run similarly or exactly like Test 7, the test used to determine that Dispel was 320 E.
Fortunately, you have more options than just casting Cure 1 for 0 HP - that would take an incredibly long time. As with the enmity cap testing, it is possible to stack spells with known CE values like Dispel. As knowledge of variouis abilities and their associated CEs are found, it should become easier to determine the CE of any ability. I will go over 2 examples of how you can go about doing this; it does involve some basic math.
Example 1 - Finding Cumulative Enmity Loss of an Utsusemi Shadow
We know from Test 2 that losing an Utsusemi Shadow causes some form of Cumulative Enmity loss. We can now find it using what I call a "Table Method". The Table Method is used to keep track of 2 players' current state of Cumulative Enmity by documenting particular actions. I think this method will become clear after seeing this example.
The table begins AFTER the 3rd player pulls the mob. The third player is not included...
The final action in this Table Method should always leave both players at equal enmity. To ensure this, try to step up with cures. If the final action was not a cure, but you think both players are at the same enmity, you can still verify - have the player without hate cast cure twice in a row. If you are at equal enmity, that player will take hate the first cure. If the other player (the one originally with hate) then casts cure, he should not have hate back. This is a simple verification process you can use.
Note that the enmity values in the table ONLY include the Cumulative Enmity (CE) of actions, Volatile Enmity (VE) is completely ignored. This is a proper assumption as long as you wait a good 10 seconds between actions other than Cure 1 for 0 HP, which generates no VE. So the final line, we can basically set an equal sign and solve for our unknown variable X...
321 = 321 + X + 25 >>> X = Cumulative Enmity of Losing an Utsusemi Shadow = - 25 CE
This is a simple example using just Cures and Dispel to determine the Enmity of losing an Utsusemi Shadow. Now that we know this value for Utsusemi though, we can immediately use it to build on further determinations...
Example 2 - Finding Cumulative Enmity Gained from Hojo: Ichi
We'll apply the Table Method again, but this time, we can use the value we got in Example 1 for Utsusemi Shadow loss. This gives us a huge leeway in not having to Cure a billion times - which speed up the process considerably. I would definitely not advocate determining any of these values using solely Cures like we did for Test 7. I did verify the numbers afterwards using this to make sure though - it does work out.
In this test, Ashira has pre-buffed Utsusemi: Ichi prior to the pull and beginning. Once again, the table lists the actions completed right after the 3rd player has pulled the enemy in place...
We can now set the 2 terms equal to each other given that we assume CE for both players is currently equal. Again, we can run that small Cure test to verify this. If you are using Cure 1 for 0 HP as your final action and just stepping up 1 unit at a time, you shouldn't have to do this, though.
320 = 320 + X - 75 >>> X = Cumulative Enmity of Hojo: Ichi = 80 CE
Now that we have 3 Cumulative Enmity values greater than 1, things should be much easier in testing. At this point, it's really about just using the proven and tested data and building upon it. You kind of have to mix and match and determine the values of various spells that way. Again, this does not have anything to do with Volatile Enmity in any way.
My hope is that an extensive search for all abilities, actions, and spells that do not involve Curing or Damage can be done to find all of them that have a Cumulative Enmity not 1 CE. Using this method, it should actually be rather quick to find the CE of any particular action.
At this point in time, I would prefer to focus more on Cumulative Enmity as it is easier to maintain controls for these kinds of tests. At this point, I believe that the knowledge gained from the first 11 tests is adequate to find the Cumulative Enmity of any action that does not have a damage or cured value associated with it. These tests will run similarly or exactly like Test 7, the test used to determine that Dispel was 320 E.
Fortunately, you have more options than just casting Cure 1 for 0 HP - that would take an incredibly long time. As with the enmity cap testing, it is possible to stack spells with known CE values like Dispel. As knowledge of variouis abilities and their associated CEs are found, it should become easier to determine the CE of any ability. I will go over 2 examples of how you can go about doing this; it does involve some basic math.
Example 1 - Finding Cumulative Enmity Loss of an Utsusemi Shadow
We know from Test 2 that losing an Utsusemi Shadow causes some form of Cumulative Enmity loss. We can now find it using what I call a "Table Method". The Table Method is used to keep track of 2 players' current state of Cumulative Enmity by documenting particular actions. I think this method will become clear after seeing this example.
The table begins AFTER the 3rd player pulls the mob. The third player is not included...
| Actions Performed | Kaeko | Ashira | Hate |
| Kaeko casts Dispel x1 | 320 | 0 | Kaeko |
Ashira casts Dispel x1 | 320 | 320 | Ashira |
Kaeko casts Cure 1 for 0 HP x1 | 321 | 320 | Kaeko |
Ashira casts Utsusemi: Ichi | 321 | 321 | Ashira |
Ashira loses 1 Shadow | 321 | 321 + X | Kaeko |
Ashira casts Cure 1 for 0 HP x25 | 321 | 321 + X + 25 | Ashira |
The final action in this Table Method should always leave both players at equal enmity. To ensure this, try to step up with cures. If the final action was not a cure, but you think both players are at the same enmity, you can still verify - have the player without hate cast cure twice in a row. If you are at equal enmity, that player will take hate the first cure. If the other player (the one originally with hate) then casts cure, he should not have hate back. This is a simple verification process you can use.
Note that the enmity values in the table ONLY include the Cumulative Enmity (CE) of actions, Volatile Enmity (VE) is completely ignored. This is a proper assumption as long as you wait a good 10 seconds between actions other than Cure 1 for 0 HP, which generates no VE. So the final line, we can basically set an equal sign and solve for our unknown variable X...
321 = 321 + X + 25 >>> X = Cumulative Enmity of Losing an Utsusemi Shadow = - 25 CE
This is a simple example using just Cures and Dispel to determine the Enmity of losing an Utsusemi Shadow. Now that we know this value for Utsusemi though, we can immediately use it to build on further determinations...
Example 2 - Finding Cumulative Enmity Gained from Hojo: Ichi
We'll apply the Table Method again, but this time, we can use the value we got in Example 1 for Utsusemi Shadow loss. This gives us a huge leeway in not having to Cure a billion times - which speed up the process considerably. I would definitely not advocate determining any of these values using solely Cures like we did for Test 7. I did verify the numbers afterwards using this to make sure though - it does work out.
In this test, Ashira has pre-buffed Utsusemi: Ichi prior to the pull and beginning. Once again, the table lists the actions completed right after the 3rd player has pulled the enemy in place...
| Actions Performed | Kaeko | Ashira | Hate |
| Kaeko casts Dispel x1 | 320 | 0 | Kaeko |
Ashira casts Dispel x1 | 320 | 320 | Ashira |
Ashira casts Hojo: Ichi x1 | 320 | 320 + X | Ashira |
Ashira loses 3 Shadows | 320 | 320 + X - 3(25) | Ashira |
(All Shadows Removed) | 320 | 320 + X - 3(25) | Ashira |
Kaeko casts Cure 1 for 0 HP x5 | 325 | 320 + X - 3(25) | Kaeko |
We can now set the 2 terms equal to each other given that we assume CE for both players is currently equal. Again, we can run that small Cure test to verify this. If you are using Cure 1 for 0 HP as your final action and just stepping up 1 unit at a time, you shouldn't have to do this, though.
320 = 320 + X - 75 >>> X = Cumulative Enmity of Hojo: Ichi = 80 CE
Now that we have 3 Cumulative Enmity values greater than 1, things should be much easier in testing. At this point, it's really about just using the proven and tested data and building upon it. You kind of have to mix and match and determine the values of various spells that way. Again, this does not have anything to do with Volatile Enmity in any way.
My hope is that an extensive search for all abilities, actions, and spells that do not involve Curing or Damage can be done to find all of them that have a Cumulative Enmity not 1 CE. Using this method, it should actually be rather quick to find the CE of any particular action.
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Conclusions
I think a lot of great strides were made in part II of the testing on ths blog. At this point, I feel we are ready to do an extensive search of all abilities with a Cumulative Enmity greater than 1 CE. Any help in performing this would be greatly appreciated. At this point in time, we have started a small list of known Cumulative Enmity values from certain actions, abilities, or spells. This does not include ones where CE was equal to 1.
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Action Performed | Cumulative Enmity (CE) |
| Aspir * | 320 |
| Cure V ** | 400 |
| Dispel | 320 |
| Flash | 180 |
| Hojo: Ichi | 80 |
| Sleep | 320 |
| Sleep II | 480 |
| Sleepga *** | 180 |
| Sleepga II *** | 180 |
| Stun | 180 |
| Utsusemi Shadow Loss | -25 |
| Blink Spell Shadow Loss | 0 |
* Aspir was tested using a 0 MP Aspir - whether MP drained affects hate has not been tested
** Cure V is the same amount of Cumulative Enmity regardless of the amount of HP cured
*** Sleepga spells grant the same hate regardless of number of targets hit (tested)
These actions have Volatile Enmity as well! At this time, we are just looking at the Cumulative Enmity!
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I hope others can use this data to try to find more data values. Feel free to post any results you get if you're interested in contributing. As I have done previously, I will cite when the information is used on here if you happen to give your FFXI Name and Server. Ashira and I are really excited about this and I hope others will help contribute as well. There are way too many spells to do a full set of testing by just the 2 of us, so we do need some help! In particular, neither of us has a BLU, so if there are any willing testers with 75 BLU, that would be great.
Here is a summary of findings for those too lazy to disect the tests...
- The Cumulative Enmity Cap is exactly 10,000 CE
- Cumulative and Volatile Enmity act as seperate entities
- An Action can produce both Cumulative and Volatile Enmity, but it MUST produce at least 1 CE
- Zoning and Logging Off do not immediately "reset hate"
I know these posts started out pretty dry, but I hope others see the breakthroughs we've made on the subject of Enmity now. Already, I can think of a number of useful strategies - both tanking and non-tanking which can be developed with just the limited data we have right now. I really hope that this list above can be expanded quickly with the help of the endgame community.
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Pic of the Day
While Saku and I go 0/40+ on X's Knife...
Tinkly gets it on the 5th attempt!
Drama Thread of the Day
http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=pos
Diabolos Server Drama - botting, kickings, screenshots, and fairly high emo level from OP.
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Page Summary
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aurik_ffxi : (no subject) [+0] - (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+0]
- akroma_ffangel : (no subject) [+0]
- (Anonymous) : Here is my data for Volatile Enmity [+25]
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- gathzel : (no subject) [+0]
- (Anonymous) : (no subject) [+1]
- (Anonymous) : More Testing [+10]
- (Anonymous) : Hate ties [+1]
- (Anonymous) : Excellent work! [+7]
- lhymes : Fantastic stuff! (& request/suggestion) [+0]
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- (Anonymous) : Emnity testing conclusion concerns [+0]
- (Anonymous) : Error [+0]
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Designed by chasethestars
chasethestars
Comments
Once we have a fairly extensive catalog of CE given by spells and abilities, we can start in on VE as well :D
-Sath- Ifrit Server
Not to say we can't do this already, but by knowing the exact numbers it only gets easier :D
Latest Enmity Information
All enmity appears to go into one enmity pool per character. The maximum amount of Cumulative Enmity which can be obtained is 10,000 Enmity Units (EU). Volatile Enmity decays at a rate of 60 EU per second.
Terms
Volatile Enmity (VE) - enmity which can decay with time
Cumulative Enmity (CE) - enmity which can any decay from taking damage or loosing shadows
Enmity Units (EU) - a unit of measure for enmity; the quantity of enmity generated by casting Cure I for 0 HP
Skill/Spell Name - Units of Volatile Enmity (VE), Units of Cumulative Enmity (CE)
Provoke - 1800, 1
Boost - 300, 1
Dispel - ???, 320
RDM Barspells - 300, 1
Blind - 640, 1
Comments
I was able to determine the exact values shown above using Dispel and spells with 1 CE. I would track the number of enmity units on all characters using a spreadsheet. At the beginning of every test, both characters would cast 1 CE spells until they had equal EU. This is how I accounted for possible problems created by zoning.
Example
Here is an example of getting extremely high enmity in only 30 seconds as a Lv20 RDM/WAR at a cost of only 68 MP.
Time (Seconds), Skill/Spell, Enmity
0, Provoke, 1800
1, N/A, 1740
2, N/A, 1680
3, Blind, 1620+640=2260
4, N/A, 2200
5, N/A, 2140
6, Barstone, 2080+300=2380
7, N/A, 2320
8, N/A, 2260
9, Baraero, 2200+300=2680
10, N/A, 2620
11, N/A, 2560
12, N/A, 2500
13, Blind, 2440+640=3080
14, N/A, 3020
15, N/A, 2960
16, Barstone, 2900+300=3200
17, N/A, 3140
18, N/A, 3080
19, Baraero, 3020+300=3320
20, N/A, 3260
21, N/A, 3200
22, N/A, 3140
23, Blind, 3080+640=3720
24, N/A, 3660
25, N/A, 3600
26, Barstone, 3540+300=3840
27, N/A, 3780
28, N/A, 3720
29, Baraero, 3660+300=3960
30, Provoke, 3900+1800=5700
Also you post numbers like boost = 300 etc. How did you come about those numbers?
I think we can model this in a 2 enmity system - one with VE and one with CE. It looks like they act largely independently.
I suspect that VE decays naturally but NOTHING else can lower it (have to prove but that's my gut feeling). CE won't decay over time, but actions probably lower it.
Awesome job on the data.
Now that is an interesting ability.
I went ahead and wrote the #s you gave me down because your testing method is exact. I was worried you were using a time based calculation method, which is not exact. You method is exact so I feel very comfortable using the numbers.
About Bind... it is very odd and seems to cause a near hate reset after the bind effect WEARS. This seems to be true of its CE as well as VE? For now, I've chosen to just ignore any sort of testing on it. If I were to test it, it would have to be on something I knew would resist the effect first, like a fire elemental.
For third eye, I went ahead and said it was 1 CE and 0 VE, not 0 CE 0 VE. I just have a hard time believing it generates 0 hate. Also, you seem to get 2 CE differences when you test, so you could have easily missed the 1 CE unit from it. Tell me if this is incorrect and it actually is 0 CE 0 VE.
Thanks for all the hard work so far!
I have one request for you. Can you please provide a list of all the spells you have tested and found do not have cumulative enmity so we don't waste time testing other spells. For example you have hojo:ichi listed but you do not say if you tested hojo:Ni or Kuriyami etc.. So if you have tested them and found CE does not exist for them can you post it?
It might also be nice if you could start updating a list as people begin posting showing all the actions or spells related to CE so we don't waste time double testing everything.
Anyway this is fantastic! Good job
~Elipse
Silence
Gravity
Provoke
Slow
Refresh
Paralyze
Blind
All Bar- Spells
Utsusemi: Ichi
Utsusemi: Ni
Bind - do not use this right now - hate wears if it lands and effect wears
Total Enmity could be Accumulated Enmity or Enmity Sum.
if you were being formal you'd use
Es (static)
Ev (volatile)
Et (total)
etc.
but we can't use subscript in game and it doesn't matter too much if you define class and type in the order type-class.
if you're happy with the terms you have~ just disregard this.
ciz.
Also yea, subscripts are really annoying lol. Especially since you cant use those when typing in game.
Once again, good job!
/ Gathzel, Ragnarok
As well as for souleater and for last resort. Also things like Sentinel and how it effects your hate increase / how hate is reduced off of you while it's up would be useful for those who use more then NIN/DRK tanks.
Also Sentinel w/ Guardian up would be another good test.
Seems to be correct for cures but we have seen this to be correct for cure I values. From the testing we did today we did not test Cure IV so take it for what its worth. My guess is that CE remains constant from Cure I-IV but that VE has a larger cure IV modifier.
~Elipse
I don't feel like typing everything out exactly after we've been testing for 6 hours this morning but I can assure you we used the exact same testing methodology as described.
All tests were done with a 3rd party puller. So assume this is the case for all tests. I don't want to have to retype that.
Things we have verified
Enmity from melee damage:
When dealing damage with melee your damage is multiplied by 13.3333333 and added to your E as CE. Its likely more like 66/512 or 67/512. My brain is mush right now. Perhaps someone can put that together for us.
This was done by first having a player hit the bee with hand to hand. Then player 2 casts dispel to get hate with shadows already up. Player 2 then loses shadows until hate returns to the player that hit the bee. From there player 2 casts cure 1 for 0 until the bee returns.
This was done over and over with different hit amounts. As with anything there is the possibility of a slight variation due to the small damage sizes. Either way its pretty damn close.
Enmity lost when taking damage:
We can verify that when taking damage you lose enmity equal to the damage of the hit multiplied by 1.6-1.66. Somewhere in that range. Unfortunately I couldn't come up with a way to take 100+ damage hits and make test consistant and controled or I would have an exact number for you.
For this we moved to meriphasomething mountain. We pulled a raptor, then both players used dispel. One player got hit then the second player used cures until hate moved. Due to the need to control the tests using naked players the highest damage hit we were able to do this with was 25 damage before the other players stoneskin would wear off adding complications when that player would get hit etc.
I'm certain someone can run a test with higher numbers however I'm certain you'll find the range of hate loss hits right into 1.6-1.66.
Do you lose less hate with +enmity gear on when losing a shadow?
We can also verify that wearing +enmity gear does not lower the amount of enmity lost when losing a shadow. Sounds like a no brainer, but we still wanted to see if +enmity gear had an effect on the -25E lost when losing a shadow. Even with +20 enmity gear on when losing a shadow we lost exactly 25E.
Does enmity gear raise the cap?
Enmity gear does not raise the CE cap of 10,000E. Sounds silly but we wanted to test if it does in fact raise the bar so to speak. It does not.
How much enmity bonus does Sentinal give?
Yeah, holy crap. Sentinal gives a 100% bonus to CE during its effect. You CANNOT exceed this bonus with enmity gear. Therefore enmity gear is useless during sentinal because you are at capped enmity.
This also suggests the theoretical cap on +enmity is in fact 100. However since we'll never hit it, it doesn't matter and we probably can't verify. While we're at it. Sentinal does not have any CE, just creates VE spike.
Minor note:
When CE is reduced it does not return to 0. Lowest its reduced to is 1.
So what does all this mean? Well I'll leave that up to kaeko to put a practical spin on it all. Suwi and I are just providing some data to get this all figured out.
E.g. Player 1 has 1 cumulative enmity from Cure for 0. Player 2 then casts Cure for 0 HP as well. Does Player 2 take hate, or does he need to exceed Player 1's enmity?
I believe the unit of hate you use is indeed the unit used by the game. I'm not sure if this has been talked about, but it can be proven by comparing the hate generated with +50 Enmity.
1 unit +50% = 1 unit
2+ units +50% = 3+ units
So this means that those actions (Cure 0 HP, Provoke, ...) that generate the same amount of hate with and without +50 Enmity produce 1 unit of hate. I performed this test with a Horror Head II during its latents conditions using Provoke.
The HP<->Hate ratios for receiving, dealing damage and curing seem to depend only on the level of the target. I'm certain this is the case for curing. When I cured myself as a LV75 for 100 HP, I'd get 72 CE, but a LV43 curing himself for the same amount would get 111 CE. A LV75 curing a LV43 for 100 HP would also get 111 CE. According to my notes, in theory, curing a low level player could generate up to 4 times the amount of hate as a LV75 character curing himself for the same amount. I don't think this could be done in practice though.
Tony
With regards to your other information, a lot of our numbers seem to match near precisely for the CE numbers. That's a good sign because it looks like you did something different to reach those same conclusions. I am a bit curious on how you are doing your VE numbers though.
Thanks for posting!
One thing that I'd love to see, and I'm sure many others would too, would be tests on what the + and - enmity values on gear cap at. I'd expect something in the realm of either +/-25 or +/-50 caps (stipulating on the higher end of the spectrum).
The other way would be, say the everyone in the alliance share one pool of 10000 cumulative enmity. One tank works against everyone else and pulling enmity from them like tug-of-war. Enmity being constantly pulled away from the tank and the tank pulling back the enmity. This other point of view explains why WHMs in the alliance during long fight, casting massive amount of cures over time, don't pull hate.
I suggest you redo this test with 3 people or more. One person reached cumulative enmity cap. The other two work against each others to steal hate. Cumulative enmity cap is divided among the active people. Say if a party has two -active- tank and the maximum cumulative enmity an active person can get is 10000, then according to the tug-of-war view the maximum cumulative enmity each tank can have is 5000 since they both tanks constantly working against each others.
Your ancedotal evidence about the WHM not constantly pulling hate is flawed simply because I don't think you took into consideration VE. 10000 is only half of the total enmity cap. Also, in long fights, WHMs typically shutdown to try reseting hate. They do indeed constantly pull hat eover time.
The better example of this is actually BRD. BRD will easily reach the 10000 CE cap, causing a ton of hate shifts if you are using sub-optimal tanking styles. I remember this was certainly the case back when people used NIN/WAR on Tiamat.
So in summary, your example is actually the exact opposite of what you say happens - WHMs do pull hate constantly long term. They only momentarily lose it because they get hit so CE decreases. Regardless, we have done tests which involved 3+ players hitting the CE cap on the same mob, so your suggestion has been done, albeit not on purpose.
Did you read the sections later on regarding VE? I only ask because you posted this in section 3 and make no mention of VE, despite the fact it is just as critical to understanding hate. I think many readers mistake CE for TE and hence have trouble understanding the true mechanics.
"The "Hate List" is not simply a list of players and their TE - it is separate from the TE counter."
-Is this really a conclusion gleaned from your test? Isnt it true that the hate list IS simply a list of players and their TE, and in the presence of certain conditions, players can recede from taking a position on the list, but retain a TE counter until a certain condition (some sort of aggressive move perhaps, in your test "cure for 0hp") restores positioning for a player on the monster's hate list.
Perhaps just semantics, I found I had to read the entire test to understand your conclusions properly -which in general I think are pretty solidly forumalted. I wouldnt post, but I think it would be a good idea to start assorting a canon of all of your conclusions somewhere, it might make the missing variables easier to identify.
I wonder, have done any testing regards the following:
Although not a precise test, do any of your findings indicate emnity loss and retention due to negative emnity or plus emnity gear (or merits) when a person takes damage from a monster?
Also, I have tried some emnity testing myself, and, although you might think it sloppy and unrealiable... Collected some data that would seem to suggest that PLDs lose much less emnity when taking damage relative to other jobs. Emnity mods between the testers were similiar but not equal, however the relative rate of emnity loss certainly was disproportionate to what the mods should of accounted for. It seems to me that either job class was playing a role, or that emnity merits have an added attribute affecting the emnity loss formula regards damage taken.
Thanks,
Zangetsu (Odin)
325 = 320 + X - 75 ?
I can see you did the math right in your head, you just wrote down 320 instead of 325.