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Enmity Table

Last Updated: 8/27/2010
    
 
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 研究 Research
    
    
 ダメージ Damage Dealt Enmity
    
   Damage Taken Enmity
    
 ケアル Cure Enmity
    
    
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Comments

( 79 comments — Leave a comment )
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(Anonymous)
Nov. 11th, 2007 07:57 am (UTC)
thanks
sorry to say, i havent done any testing, just wanted to say thanks for doing this, among other things, it really explains why pld/nin with haste gear tanks so well. i'd really like to see all the cure spells mapped out, but since i dont have time to test (just bought a house and have to completely remodel it, sorry Illuminati) i cant demand much! keep up the good work all, glad i had a night to read all this.

Phemduk - Diabolos - Illuminati - 75 Pld, 75 War, aspiring blm
shirizaan
Nov. 12th, 2007 11:30 am (UTC)
Given that VE decays at a rate of 300/5s, Provoke is looking like a poor alternative for hate generation beyond the initial bump. Without some manner of generating CE the tank will quickly lose hate... And when you add in -25 CE for shadow loss with Utsusemi the numbers begin to draw an interesting conclusion:

DRK is a better sub for NIN in terms of hate generation and in turn, tanking.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 12th, 2007 09:47 pm (UTC)
The thing about VE is that total VE decays at a rate of 60 units per second. This can be tested easily by a WAR/MNK. They will get 1800VE from Provoke, 300VE from Boost #1, and 300VE from Boost #2. The total time to loose hate to someone with <60CE will be 40 seconds instead of 30 seconds with just Provoke.

-Ryoii/Nonomii
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Nov. 12th, 2007 09:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Nov. 12th, 2007 10:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - amlaruil - Nov. 16th, 2007 04:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - (Anonymous) - Mar. 3rd, 2008 10:14 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kanican - Mar. 3rd, 2008 11:04 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Nov. 12th, 2007 06:16 pm (UTC)
Taking the nin/drk example, what difference in enmity might occur if sleep were resisted, as opposed to it landing fully? A test with higher level mob for this case would be harder to set up.
kanican
Nov. 12th, 2007 07:42 pm (UTC)
As far as I can tell, whether a spell resist, has "no effect", or lands - the enmity generated will be the same.

The only exception we've found to this is Bind - it seems to have some type of hate reset when "Bind effect wears".
Bind - mojopojo_ffxi - Nov. 17th, 2007 03:16 am (UTC) - Expand
CE generated through damage - (Anonymous) - Mar. 30th, 2009 08:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Nov. 12th, 2007 08:41 pm (UTC)
Thanks and Future Plans?
First and foremost: a huge thank you for taking the initiative and time out of your ffxi gameplay to start something of this magnitude.

Secondly: Do you have any future plans to include a simplified model for nukes/cures and other spells that generate a variable amount of enmity? If so, how can I help?
kanican
Nov. 12th, 2007 09:14 pm (UTC)
Re: Thanks and Future Plans?
We wouldn't be going after the "simplified model" for damage/cures; we would be going for the exact/actual calculation in this case since we have the numbers for just about everything else.

Our goal is going to be figuring everything out except the following 4 things first...

1) Damage you deal to an enemy
2) Damage you take from an enemy
3) HP you cure using cure 1-4 (-ga)
4) Distance loss

Those 4 things are probably the most complicated at the moment. There are some other groups working on these but Ashi and I probably won't post anything on that ourselves until we figure the rest of the 'basics' out. We already figured out most everything, just shoring up the spells and stuff.

As far as helping, you would need a 3 character team to do any sort of legit testing. The new information is a little more difficult to scheme, but we could definitely use help figuring out the spell CE and VE values. This is very simple to do (outlined in part3 and part4).

Best thing anyone could do to help us out right now is to pick a spell or ability not on this current list and find it's "CE" value - most of them will be 1 anyways. This way I can get it on the list. There are 360 non-damage/cure spells in the game right now and I've only gotten about 1/6th of those listed.
Re: Thanks and Future Plans? - (Anonymous) - Nov. 14th, 2007 07:21 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Thanks and Future Plans? - (Anonymous) - Nov. 17th, 2007 03:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Nov. 13th, 2007 02:36 pm (UTC)
/Drk Abilities, and the hate they gain
How much hate does Souleater and Last Resort gain?
(Anonymous)
Nov. 13th, 2007 04:27 pm (UTC)
Please clarify a point regarding multitarget buffs.
I'm assuming there have been no actual tests on buffs that hit the whole party, but would it be safe to assume that Barspells cast by a WHM are the same VE rating as the single target Barspells cast by a RDM?

I ask because in my experiences tanking as NIN/WHM, I've never pulled hate with a Barelementra, and if the effect were spread out and the VE was multiplicative, it would make a single Barspell in a 6 person party (standing close enough together) the equivalent of a Provoke, which I can assure you isn't so...
iam_minami
Nov. 13th, 2007 05:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Please clarify a point regarding multitarget buffs.
I'm positive aoe buffs generate less enmity but generate enmity per person they hit. This was very apparent when a bard would try to mazurka tank in a 3 man party vs a 6 man party. You can see that the aoe sleepga generate less emnity than the single target versions.

I just woke up, I'll try to get some people for testing later.

p.s. awesome tests!
Re: Please clarify a point regarding multitarget buffs. - (Anonymous) - Nov. 13th, 2007 09:06 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Nov. 14th, 2007 08:36 am (UTC)
Bind?
(Anonymous)
Nov. 14th, 2007 08:41 am (UTC)
anyone wants to help on asura?
this is really fun to read, thank you!

i'd be happy to help, i have BLM73, with WHM & RDM subs, on Asura. if anyone needs one more person for their test group on Asura, pls say so :)

a couple questions.. why do you say the two testers must stand at the same distance from the monster? i thought you confirmed in the earlier tests that distance has no impact on enmity?

i also wanted to add to the list of things to do at some point. in addition to enmity from standard abilities/damage/etc, it would be nice to know the enmity generated by special actions:

- healing (by sitting down)

- passive aggro (be seen/heard/etc. by a mob that aggroes sight/sound/etc.)

- aggro that spreads from another mob through linking

- aggro that spreads from the pet or summon - if any

- aggro that spreads from another pt member - if any (a pt member forgot to cast sneak and died to a sound-aggro mob; the mob then proceeded to attack the rest of the pt, even though we were all sneaked, and didn't cure etc.; might have been a glitch though...)

(Anonymous)
Nov. 14th, 2007 03:06 pm (UTC)
Re: anyone wants to help on asura?
Passive aggro and linking shouldn't generate any hate, since you're not actually on the mob's enmity list. It wouldn't hurt to check, but it's very doubtful that they do.

--Doval
Re: anyone wants to help on asura? - kanican - Nov. 14th, 2007 04:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: anyone wants to help on asura? - kanican - Nov. 14th, 2007 04:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Nov. 18th, 2007 01:47 am (UTC)
...
...Thank you...
(Anonymous)
Nov. 22nd, 2007 12:18 am (UTC)
Warcry
Just a quick question, Warcry has been said to add an amount of enmity to the user equal to that of a Provoke, if it lands on all 5 other members of a full party, so basically enmity varies on how many people the ability effects.

So is the VE number of 300 on Warcry based on the user being solo?
kanican
Nov. 22nd, 2007 01:47 am (UTC)
Re: Warcry
From the notes written at the top of the table -

* Cumulative and Volatile Enmity values for ally target actions represent values for 1 target hit
- Multiply values given by number of players hit to calculate total CE and VE values
- Certain actions are single target only, but can be made multi-target by use of "Diffusion" JA

So yea the 300 VE number is for 1 player only. If you had a full 6 player party it would be 300x6=1800 = same as voke.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 23rd, 2007 05:35 am (UTC)
thank you
i just wanted to tank you for all the research you have been putting into this. if i can ever get the help i would like to test jump and high jump by equipping accuracy - gear and hand to hand to miss it. it is easily observable that the enmity effects go off when jumps miss however if it is a % VE then determining it accurately could take dozens of tests.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 25th, 2007 05:54 am (UTC)
Some suggestion
Can you group the abilities/spells by job? Would be much easier to look at them. :P
Good work! Keep it up!^^
(Anonymous)
Dec. 2nd, 2007 08:09 am (UTC)
Elemental Debuffs
I don't see the elemental debuffs listed. They operate in a very similar fashion to poison and poison II, is there any plan to test them? Thanks.
(Anonymous)
Dec. 8th, 2007 07:20 pm (UTC)
thank you
Thank you for all the testing you've done. I wish I could help, but all of my jobs are really too low or not suited. In any case, this is an awesome resource for the FFXI community.
(Anonymous)
Dec. 23rd, 2007 03:54 am (UTC)
Unreasonable
ur telling me Invisible builds more hate then Invincable?? lol ridiculus
kanican
Dec. 23rd, 2007 09:41 am (UTC)
Re: Unreasonable
This is probably a troll comment, but I'm going to respond in case someone comes back to read the comments awhile from now and thinks I messed something up.

Invisible is not even listed right now. There is no way you could possibly make a comparison between Invisible and PLD 2hr on this table right now.

On a side note, if you used PLD 2hr, then waited 2 minutes, then had someone else use Invisible on the hate list already, yes Invisible would pull hate.
Re: Unreasonable - ikarigaruda - Mar. 3rd, 2008 08:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Unreasonable - kanican - Mar. 3rd, 2008 11:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Unreasonable - ikarigaruda - Mar. 5th, 2008 02:53 am (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Dec. 29th, 2007 07:16 am (UTC)
An interesting note: many blue mage spells seem to generate a lot of hate. Blue Mage tanking go?
(Anonymous)
May. 25th, 2008 09:58 am (UTC)
blue enmity
I believe part of the reason many blue mage spells seem to pull alot of hate is because many of them are multi strike, so not only does the mob take damage from each strike, they get a small amount of enmity from each one as well, similar to a paladin using vorpal blade over savage blade, more enmity becaue of more hits, and blue mage can tank using just it's damage spells
(Anonymous)
Jan. 3rd, 2008 11:03 am (UTC)
Sentinel and pull
I want to confirm what seems to be a reasonable deduction from your test. Doing Sentinel and then pulling, will grant 400 CE and 1800 VE?
(Anonymous)
Jan. 27th, 2008 10:36 pm (UTC)
Re: Sentinel and pull
It would only give you that much CE and VE if you used Sentinel after pulling. If you use Sentinel before, of course the mob will generate no CE or VE to you because you haven't even been noticed.
bsphil
Jan. 8th, 2008 04:02 am (UTC)
Excellent work so far, looking forward to seeing more and more abilities and spells fill in. Maybe I should just test Barrage and Sharpshot for myself, since you've got all the ground work done.
(Anonymous)
Jan. 27th, 2008 10:47 pm (UTC)
CE vs. VE tanking
With regards to those above who suggested that /drk etc might be better options for tanking due to better long term CE values, remember that it is important to have that balance. High VE abilities such as Provoke generally have a fast recast. If you are tanking a mob that will die fairly quickly than CE will have less importance.(IMO) On mobs that are difficult and will tank a long time to tank, CE is crucial, but even then, VE is necessary because of the high amounts of hate generated by say.. a RNG doing Slug shot etc. Even though hate would eventually get back to you because of your high CE, he'll die if you can't get the mobs attention again quickly. So, overall, it really just depends on the mob, and the party/alliance setup to help determine whether a particular subjob (in this instance say nin/war vs nin/drk) would be more beneficial in a given situation.
(Anonymous)
Feb. 10th, 2008 01:44 am (UTC)
Excellent work.

Interesting to see that Meditate is CE and not VE, unlike most similar JAs (Last Resort, Souleater, Warcry,...).

But I do have some questions: would 1 point of damage=1 point of CE be a good approximation?
Same question for cures.

And lastly, another about Aspir.
320 CE just doesn't seem right.
Casting Drain (and Aspir if applicable) at the beginning of fights used to be standard practice for black mages years ago, and it generated very low hate.

Shouldn't the mob have turned from the tank after Provoke's enmity dissipated, especially at low levels?

I've always believed enmity from Aspir (and Drain) was proportional to the MP or HP recovered, hence why casting both at the beginning of a fight didn't turn the mob from a NIN that only voked, even at lv30.
Has this possibility been considered?


If these questions have been answered in the links detailling the methodology, I apologize.
I haven't read them yet, but I will eventually.


Other than Aspir, most the values that I have experience with seem to be dead accurate.
I had no idea Poison and PoisonII had such a VE, they always felt like low-hate spells.
(Anonymous)
Feb. 12th, 2008 11:43 pm (UTC)
Tricky question for ya...
First off, this is simply amazing and I'm a much better player because of the work you and your compatriots have done. But one question I have that I didn't see the answer to (I'm one of those that skimmed and just read the conclusions xD), approx. how much hate does a tank need to have on average to be a 'good tank'? Good tank = holding hate an entire fight. I realize the answer is going to be a percentage above everyone else, and that most tanks will lose hate a few times. But just throwing the thought out there, maybe you can turn it into something better. Thanks.
kanican
Feb. 13th, 2008 12:41 am (UTC)
Re: Tricky question for ya...
The answer is it depends (obviously). There are 4 common tanking styles that people generally use -

1) DD Tank
2) VE Tank
3) CE Tank
4) TE Tank

DD tank refers to anything that uses damage as its primary source of hate. Most comment example of this is a merit party or say MNK tanking Salvage.

VE tank refers to the old school PLD/WAR. You're not doing damage, but you're constantly spiking VE using things like Flash and Provoke. Obviously this is not too commonly seen in endgame nowadays.

CE tank is anything that tries to cap CE at 10000 and maintain it; but cannot cap VE. RDM/NIN accomplishes this the easiest with all the high CE moves it has. I would say in true endgame, you'll want to do better than this.

TE tank will cap both CE and VE. VE is more difficult to cap and requires a constant spamming of high VE moves. CE just generally means you're not getting hit. RDM/NIN, PLD/NIN, and NIN/DRK can all reach this point without much issue if well played. PLD/NIN probably has the most difficult time doing this of the 3, but it is still generally the most stout tank.

As far as what is a good tank, if you're going for a perfect scenario on a wyrm, you want to TE cap. Doing this makes it impossible for anyone in the alliance to get hate off you unless they too are able to hit the TE cap (requires some really nasty DDs to do this). This is the basis behind how groups do Tiamat fights and spam the shit out of it for an hour and have no hate switches.

The key to turning your tank from something that caps only CE to one that caps VE as well is to break the VE decay rate of -60VE a sec (3600 a minute). Doing so means you are having a net gain of VE and you will eventually cap. NIN/DRK has the easist time doing this of the big 3. RDM/NIN does pretty well on this as well IF they spam blind (which many do not).
(Anonymous)
Mar. 4th, 2008 11:24 am (UTC)
CE's for Elemental spells?
I don't see any testing for elemental spells and I'm REALLY curious about them. I was playing around with my blm and whm mule with elementals but without a third person and my mule only being 68 I can't do any real test.
I was able to get my characters fairly balanced w/ cure 0's on the lvl 68.
I was doing this on an air elemental so I was spamming it with aero spells in oder to get the lowest amount of damage possible.

Tier1 Aero was ~12 cures on the 68 char
Aero 2 was ~= 2 Aero1's
Aero 3 was ~= 2 Aero2's

My results obviously aren't accurate down to the unit for many reasons but I thought I'd post because it gives a starting point for looking at values. I noticed after pulling hate back w/ the last 2 aero2's I wasn't able to rebalance hate w/ a Cure1 but a single tier1 Aero pulled hate right back and held it.
I can say at least for certain elemental spells have a higher CE than 1(somewhere closer to 10) and the CE increases as the spells go higher.
I only tested with aero so each spell may have a different CE since each spell has a different base damage?
kanican
Mar. 7th, 2008 08:02 pm (UTC)
Re: is this accurate?
What are you basing those bar graphs on? Since you're coming up with a rough quantity for each bar, you would have to say how you were obtaining those numbers. Without that, you can't even say if it's inaccurate or accurate.
Re: is this accurate? - (Anonymous) - Mar. 7th, 2008 08:54 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: is this accurate? - shaddixboggs - Mar. 7th, 2008 08:55 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: is this accurate? - kanican - Mar. 8th, 2008 07:11 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: is this accurate? - shaddixboggs - Mar. 8th, 2008 05:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: is this accurate? - shaddixboggs - Mar. 9th, 2008 12:56 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: is this accurate? - kanican - Mar. 10th, 2008 07:26 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: is this accurate? - shaddixboggs - Mar. 13th, 2008 06:44 am (UTC) - Expand
shaddixboggs
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:13 am (UTC)
btw i like the new layout :D
shaddixboggs
Mar. 24th, 2008 09:41 pm (UTC)
i not trying to show which tank is "better" :/ i trying to show people how easy it is for a particular tank to build CE and VE
blackmage vs maat - (Anonymous) - Dec. 5th, 2009 01:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Mar. 27th, 2008 05:01 am (UTC)
Terms and suggestion
I think what you've done has benefited everyone who is lucky enough to read your findings and the efforts of you and your friends.

BUT

As far as terminology is concerned, I think you could reword it and choose alternative terms which would be added value, and take these findings from findings to comprehensive laws.

CE- Cumulative Enmity, I believe it is more accurate to regard this as either Constant (non-variable/non decaying) Enmity, or Consistant (non-volatile)

VE- Volatile Enmity is perfect. Someone argued for Corrosive, but Volatile is far more accurate in descibing this form of Enmity. As it initially is an added value that later decays. Corrorsive would imply the negative effect without accounting for the positive effect.

TE- Totall Enmity, I think this should be either left the way it is or changed to Cumulative Enmity as Cumulative means the sum of. Problem being that so many people are now used to the current terminology you use that it will probably confuse everyone for a while.

kanican
Mar. 27th, 2008 05:15 am (UTC)
Re: Terms and suggestion
I personally did not coin the phrases for CE, VE, and TE. I used the naming convention which is now popularized based on a translation of a well-known article in a JP magazine by Elmer the Pointy on BG forums.

The reasoning for this was to not force any more terminology on others. These names were best in my opinion since their terms were being thrown around on BG already, and were DIRECT translations from the JP magazine, which had already popularized those terms in the JP community. I just felt it made more sense to stick with it, especially, since the table is now offered in English and Japanese.

If you want to see the original coining of the names, it would be the JP names for them. Whether or not they are the best names is certainly up for debate, but as you mentioned, changing them now would be pretty difficult.

Basically, was not my call! I just went with what was being used. I personally am fine with the naming though.
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