Overview
So sorry that this update to the Enmity Testing is about 5 months overdue. Ashira and I have still be working on it, but progress has slowed down a bit as of late. There is still much more insight to report, so I hope that this post adds to the growing knowledge of how hate works in this game. There is really so much to cover, but in this post, I want to focus on the recent updates to the Enmity Table as well as continue to hash out some more basic hate mechanics like hate resets and new abilities like Accomplice.
In this post, the following concepts will be touched upon...
- How do the new THF abilities - Collaborator and Accomplice - work?
- Under what specific conditions does "zoning" cause a hate reset?
Before I begin, I just want to encourage those of you who have not taken a look at the revamped Enmity Tables to browse through. I've completely redone the layout to now split all abilities and spells by job, and in Japanese and English. The SCH and BLU tables are a bit messed up and are actually split into 2 different posts - this is because LJ caps the size of a post and these 2 jobs contain too many spells and abilities to fit onto a single post. Any suggestions to how the tables can be improved for clarity would be greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately, this post will not include anything on the formulas for Cures, damage taken, or damage dealt. I know these are the 3 things people most want to know right now, but they are proving to be rather difficult to hash out. We are still working on these though.
Previous: Enmity Testing (Part VI)
Next: Enmity Testing (Part VIII)
Enmity Table
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Conclusions
As always, for those not interested in the testing procedures, I'll outline the conclusions of the tests done in this post. There is one piece of new terminology outlined in the post - the HC, or "hate counter".
THF Abilities - Collaborator and Accomplice
- The maximum distance at which the THF abilities Collaborator and Accomplice work at is 20.6'.
- Only the distance of the THF user relative to the mob matters - target distance plays no role.
Distinction Between Hate List and TE Storage
- It is possible to have the highest TE of any player, yet not be the mob's target.
- The "Hate List" is not simply a list of players and their TE - it is separate from the TE counter.
- A mob chooses targets based on who has the highest TE of the players on the hate list.
Effect of "Zoning" on TE Storage and Hate List Counter (HC)
- "Zoning" while currently at the top of the hate list will cause an enmity reset (TE reset).
- "Zoning" while currently NOT at the top of the hate list will not cause a full enmity reset.
- "Zoning" causes a the removal of the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
- "Zoning" into the same area while currently at the top of the hate list will NOT cause an enmity reset.
- "Zoning" into the same area will NOT remove the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
In addition to the continued testing such as those seen above, I just want to, again, place some focus on the continuously updated Enmity Table, which has undergone some major changes in look and sorting. The lists are not only sorted by job now, but are also available in Japanese now as well. While some jobs are fully completed or nearly completed, there are a couple needing a great deal of work still, such as DNC and BLU jobs.
Any suggestions to future tests or the pointing out of flaws in the testing of any section are welcomed as always.
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Pic of the Day
Warning:
You may find the following 2 pics disturbing. Actually, if you don't, there's something wrong with you.
Slaut's birthday present to Senrez....
Let's top that one with a RL FFXI pic...
http://blmperseus.exblog.jp/
WTF
Drama Thread of the Day
Instead of giving a drama thread, I thought I'd change up the pace here. A couple people last week PMed me about starting their own journals and how to gain readers. This is a really difficult thing to answer since a lot of it is just personality and then lots of luck, but I thought I'd give examples of LJs I happen to enjoy reading about FFXI - they range from the informational, to the funny, to the great designs, or just the wide popularity.
Here are my top 5 personal favorite LJs or blogs to read, excluding anyone in my own LS. No one here has asked for a plug or anything, these are just my personal favorites. Ranked in no particular order, although they are numbered... Again, no one asked for a plug! These are just my opinions. I sort of put the defining features of each in red just to sort of differentiate them since I can't really rank them.
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So sorry that this update to the Enmity Testing is about 5 months overdue. Ashira and I have still be working on it, but progress has slowed down a bit as of late. There is still much more insight to report, so I hope that this post adds to the growing knowledge of how hate works in this game. There is really so much to cover, but in this post, I want to focus on the recent updates to the Enmity Table as well as continue to hash out some more basic hate mechanics like hate resets and new abilities like Accomplice.
In this post, the following concepts will be touched upon...
- How do the new THF abilities - Collaborator and Accomplice - work?
- Under what specific conditions does "zoning" cause a hate reset?
Before I begin, I just want to encourage those of you who have not taken a look at the revamped Enmity Tables to browse through. I've completely redone the layout to now split all abilities and spells by job, and in Japanese and English. The SCH and BLU tables are a bit messed up and are actually split into 2 different posts - this is because LJ caps the size of a post and these 2 jobs contain too many spells and abilities to fit onto a single post. Any suggestions to how the tables can be improved for clarity would be greatly appreciated.
Unfortunately, this post will not include anything on the formulas for Cures, damage taken, or damage dealt. I know these are the 3 things people most want to know right now, but they are proving to be rather difficult to hash out. We are still working on these though.
Previous: Enmity Testing (Part VI)
Next: Enmity Testing (Part VIII)
Enmity Table
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Enmity Table Updates!
I had received a great number of complaints that the original table, which was sorted alphabetically was pretty much impossible to read through, so the tables are now sorted much more reasonably...
- Main Table now lists all jobs in Japanese and English
- Each ability or spell is sorted by its type, then by level learned, then by English alphabetical
- The following Data is listed for each ability or spell
(1) Name
(2) Cumulative Enmity
(3) Volatile Enmity
(4) Level Gained
(5) MP Cost
(6) Casting Time
MP cost and Casting time were added into the table due to their significance when determining how strong or weak a spell was as far as hate accumulation. Some spells can generate reasonable amounts of Volatile Enmity, such as Stoneskin; however, because the casting time is so significant, the spell is essentially hate free. Other spells such as Poison have rather small VE values, but because they are so fast and have good recasts, they can still be used for hate accumulation.
In addition to these, you may notice the color coating on certain spells and abilities. Generally you'll find 4 color coatings other than the typical black -
- Enmity is based on amount of HP cured ( -- C -- )
- Enmity is based on amount of damage dealt ( -- D -- )
- Enmity is impossible to determine experimentally.( -- NA -- )
- Enmity is based on level of the caster ( -- S -- )
Examples of things that cannot be determined experimentally include Mijin Gakure and Raise. These moves either cause an instant hate reset, or can only be used on a target that cannot be the hate list (dead), hence grant no enmity. Also, because these abilities are pretty much there just for completion's sake, the coloring scheme is intentionally difficult to read on these.
The "enmity based on the caster" type is strictly for Summoners. As SMNs know, the MP cost of your elementals and avatars increases as your level increases. The same is actually true for the enmity granted. Unfortunately, anything that has to do with pets is just incredibly hard to test, so I really can't say much beyond this with any backing.
For the other 2 designations, it's important to look carefully. Not all spells and abilities that deal damage or Cure targets are based on these formulas! For instance, it is well known that Cure V is a static amount of hate not based on the formula - you can Cure V for 0 HP and it will grant the same amount of hate as a 1500 HP Cure V. The same is true for certain damage abilities such as Shield Bash. One interesting thing we found is that Bio series grants a static, low amount of hate; while the Dia series is based on damage.
Anyways, please take a look - suggestions always welcome! You can access the table on TAGS now as well under "Enmity Table!". All the original links to the old table still work - I just updated the original page instead of making a new one to avoid link confusion.
On to actual testing!
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I had received a great number of complaints that the original table, which was sorted alphabetically was pretty much impossible to read through, so the tables are now sorted much more reasonably...
- Main Table now lists all jobs in Japanese and English
- Each ability or spell is sorted by its type, then by level learned, then by English alphabetical
- The following Data is listed for each ability or spell
(1) Name
(2) Cumulative Enmity
(3) Volatile Enmity
(4) Level Gained
(5) MP Cost
(6) Casting Time
MP cost and Casting time were added into the table due to their significance when determining how strong or weak a spell was as far as hate accumulation. Some spells can generate reasonable amounts of Volatile Enmity, such as Stoneskin; however, because the casting time is so significant, the spell is essentially hate free. Other spells such as Poison have rather small VE values, but because they are so fast and have good recasts, they can still be used for hate accumulation.
In addition to these, you may notice the color coating on certain spells and abilities. Generally you'll find 4 color coatings other than the typical black -
- Enmity is based on amount of HP cured ( -- C -- )
- Enmity is based on amount of damage dealt ( -- D -- )
- Enmity is impossible to determine experimentally.( -- NA -- )
- Enmity is based on level of the caster ( -- S -- )
Examples of things that cannot be determined experimentally include Mijin Gakure and Raise. These moves either cause an instant hate reset, or can only be used on a target that cannot be the hate list (dead), hence grant no enmity. Also, because these abilities are pretty much there just for completion's sake, the coloring scheme is intentionally difficult to read on these.
The "enmity based on the caster" type is strictly for Summoners. As SMNs know, the MP cost of your elementals and avatars increases as your level increases. The same is actually true for the enmity granted. Unfortunately, anything that has to do with pets is just incredibly hard to test, so I really can't say much beyond this with any backing.
For the other 2 designations, it's important to look carefully. Not all spells and abilities that deal damage or Cure targets are based on these formulas! For instance, it is well known that Cure V is a static amount of hate not based on the formula - you can Cure V for 0 HP and it will grant the same amount of hate as a 1500 HP Cure V. The same is true for certain damage abilities such as Shield Bash. One interesting thing we found is that Bio series grants a static, low amount of hate; while the Dia series is based on damage.
Anyways, please take a look - suggestions always welcome! You can access the table on TAGS now as well under "Enmity Table!". All the original links to the old table still work - I just updated the original page instead of making a new one to avoid link confusion.
On to actual testing!
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Test 19
Is there a maximum range of affect for Accomplice and Collaborator? If so, what is it?
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members, one of which is a THF LVL65+ with Cure access (THF/RDM), the other with DIspel
- Both characters need to have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- Puller pulls with Silence
- Player with Dispel uses Dispel (CE = 320)
- THF cures either target to get on the hate list (CE = 1)
- Player with Dispel (@320CE) now uses Sleep (CE = 640)
- Cumulative Enmity (CE) stands at 640 vs. 1
- Have both players move to a certain distance from the mob - note these distances
- When the desired distances have been reached, have the THF use Accomplice.
- Cumulative Enmity (CE) will now be 320 vs. 321 in favor of the THF, IF hate was transferred
- Note who has hate when the mob awakens.
- If the original player still has hate, enmity was not transferred. If THF has hate, enmity was transferred.
- Repeat the process using Collaborator, however, CE must be managed differently
- Before testing the ability, have the first player use Dispel + Sleep + Cure, while THF uses Dispel x2
- This will put both players are 641 vs. 640 respectively, allowing the 25% transfer to show a switch.
Results
There were actually more trials than listed, but I only put the ones that were most relevant. Based on these trials, it seems that the maximum distance that Accomplice and Collaborator work at is 20.6'. In addition, it seems that only the distance of the USER matters in this. Even if the target is well out of range at 30.0', if the user is within the 20.6' range from the mob, enmity is still transferred. This is beneficial to Thieves, since when using these abilities, they only need to worry about their own distance for the effect.
Conclusions
The maximum distance at which the THF abilities Collaborator and Accomplice work at is 20.6'.
Only the distance of the THF user relative to the mob matters - target distance plays no role.
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Is there a maximum range of affect for Accomplice and Collaborator? If so, what is it?
Testing Setup:
- 1 puller character with Silence access (BRD/WHM)
- 2 level 75 members, one of which is a THF LVL65+ with Cure access (THF/RDM), the other with DIspel
- Both characters need to have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- Puller pulls with Silence
- Player with Dispel uses Dispel (CE = 320)
- THF cures either target to get on the hate list (CE = 1)
- Player with Dispel (@320CE) now uses Sleep (CE = 640)
- Cumulative Enmity (CE) stands at 640 vs. 1
- Have both players move to a certain distance from the mob - note these distances
- When the desired distances have been reached, have the THF use Accomplice.
- Cumulative Enmity (CE) will now be 320 vs. 321 in favor of the THF, IF hate was transferred
- Note who has hate when the mob awakens.
- If the original player still has hate, enmity was not transferred. If THF has hate, enmity was transferred.
- Repeat the process using Collaborator, however, CE must be managed differently
- Before testing the ability, have the first player use Dispel + Sleep + Cure, while THF uses Dispel x2
- This will put both players are 641 vs. 640 respectively, allowing the 25% transfer to show a switch.
Results
BLM/RDM | THF/RDM | Hate Transfer? |
| 24.9' | 24.9' | No |
| 20.7' | 20.7' | No |
| 20.6' | 20.7' | No |
| 20.7' | 20.6' | Yes |
| 30.0' | 20.6' | Yes |
| 20.6' | 20.6' | Yes |
| 19.9' | 19.9' | Yes |
There were actually more trials than listed, but I only put the ones that were most relevant. Based on these trials, it seems that the maximum distance that Accomplice and Collaborator work at is 20.6'. In addition, it seems that only the distance of the USER matters in this. Even if the target is well out of range at 30.0', if the user is within the 20.6' range from the mob, enmity is still transferred. This is beneficial to Thieves, since when using these abilities, they only need to worry about their own distance for the effect.
Conclusions
The maximum distance at which the THF abilities Collaborator and Accomplice work at is 20.6'.
Only the distance of the THF user relative to the mob matters - target distance plays no role.
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Test 20
Are there situations where the person with the highest TE is not the target of the mob?
H0: Mob targeting based solely on who has the highest TE.
H1: Mob targeting is not based solely on who has the highest TE (an exception found)
Testing Setup:
- 2 level 75 members, both with access to Cure.
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- One player pulls with Dispel (any spell works) (CE = 320+200)
- Second player Cures the puller for 0 HP twice (CE = 2)
- First player (with hate), now logs off, then immediately logs back on.
- From Test 11, we know that this will not cause a full hate reset.
- When this player logs back on, he will not have hate based on Test 11.
- Have this player now Cure the other for 0 HP and note who has hate.
H0: The puller (first player) will regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
H1: The puller (first player) will not regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
This test is extremely similar to Test 11, but is worded a bit differently. In this test, we want to find an exception to the model we set out to make earlier saying that the mob uses TE to determine who to attack. From this test, we have shown that a player that logs then immediately relogs still retains his TE, which can be the highest, but not have hate. This means the model needs to be updated to fit these exceptions.
The simplest change to the original model, which stated that TE affects who the mob will attack, is to say that there are actually two sets of counters - one that determines and tracks TE (CE and VE), and another that simply says if someone is on the hate list or not. The mob determines who to attack not just on the highest TE, but the highest TE of players on the hate list.
In the next set of tests, I will refer to 2 separate terms - "hate reset" and "enmity reset". In the testing, a "hate reset" refers to being removed off this hate counter, but remaining on the TE list. An "enmity reset" refers to being removed from the TE counter (meaning you now have 0 TE).
Conclusions
It is possible to have the highest TE of any player, yet not be the mob's target.
The "Hate List" is not simply a list of players and their TE - it is separate from the TE counter.
A mob chooses targets based on who has the highest TE of the players on the hate list.
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Are there situations where the person with the highest TE is not the target of the mob?
H0: Mob targeting based solely on who has the highest TE.
H1: Mob targeting is not based solely on who has the highest TE (an exception found)
Testing Setup:
- 2 level 75 members, both with access to Cure.
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- One player pulls with Dispel (any spell works) (CE = 320+200)
- Second player Cures the puller for 0 HP twice (CE = 2)
- First player (with hate), now logs off, then immediately logs back on.
- From Test 11, we know that this will not cause a full hate reset.
- When this player logs back on, he will not have hate based on Test 11.
- Have this player now Cure the other for 0 HP and note who has hate.
H0: The puller (first player) will regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
H1: The puller (first player) will not regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
This test is extremely similar to Test 11, but is worded a bit differently. In this test, we want to find an exception to the model we set out to make earlier saying that the mob uses TE to determine who to attack. From this test, we have shown that a player that logs then immediately relogs still retains his TE, which can be the highest, but not have hate. This means the model needs to be updated to fit these exceptions.
The simplest change to the original model, which stated that TE affects who the mob will attack, is to say that there are actually two sets of counters - one that determines and tracks TE (CE and VE), and another that simply says if someone is on the hate list or not. The mob determines who to attack not just on the highest TE, but the highest TE of players on the hate list.
In the next set of tests, I will refer to 2 separate terms - "hate reset" and "enmity reset". In the testing, a "hate reset" refers to being removed off this hate counter, but remaining on the TE list. An "enmity reset" refers to being removed from the TE counter (meaning you now have 0 TE).
Conclusions
It is possible to have the highest TE of any player, yet not be the mob's target.
The "Hate List" is not simply a list of players and their TE - it is separate from the TE counter.
A mob chooses targets based on who has the highest TE of the players on the hate list.
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Test 21A
Does "zoning" into a new area while currently at the top of the hate list cause an enmity reset?
H0: "Zoning" while at the top of the hate list does NOT cause a enmity reset.
H1: "Zoning" while at the top of the hate list does cause a enmity reset.
Testing Setup:
- 2 level 75 members, both with access to Cure.
- Testing needs to occur near a "zone" - we chose just outside Port Windurst in West Sarutabaruta
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- One player pulls with Dispel (any spell works) (CE = 320+200)
- Second player Cures the puller for 0 HP twice (CE = 2)
- Both players move to the zone, making sure the mob does not despawn or lose hate (do this slowly)
- Have the puller (who currently has hate) zone - mob will now go to the second player
- Have the puller move back into zone.
- Have this player then Cure the other player for 0 HP
- If enmity was reset, CE will be 1, and the second player will still retain hate.
- If enmity was not reset, CE will be 521, and the puller will regain hate.
H0: The puller (first player) will regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
H1: The puller (first player) will not regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
The result here shows that enmity is reset when the player with hate zones. The time taken to zone was only a couple of seconds. Now we'll see if the same is true if someone were to zone without hate.
Conclusions
"Zoning" while currently at the top of the hate list will cause an enmity reset (TE reset).
"Zoning" causes a the removal of the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
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Test 21B
Does "zoning" into a new area while currently NOT at the top of the hate list cause an enmity reset?
H0: "Zoning" while not at the top of the hate list does NOT cause a enmity reset.
H1: "Zoning" while not at the top of the hate list does cause a enmity reset.
Testing Setup:
- 2 level 75 members, both with access to Cure.
- Testing needs to occur near a "zone" - we chose just outside Port Windurst in West Sarutabaruta
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- One player pulls with DIspel twice (CE = 640+200)
- Second player uses Dispel 3 times on the mob (CE = 960)
- Both players move to the zone, making sure the mob does not despawn or lose hate (do this slowly)
- Make sure the second player has hate before zoning - there is a significant VE component to pulling
- Have the puller who pulled (CE = 840) (player without hate) zone.
- Have the player zone back in.
- Have this player then Dispel the mob.
- If enmity was reset, CE will be 320, and the second player will still retain hate (CE 320 vs. 960)
- If enmity was not reset, CE will be 1160, and the original puller will regain hate (CE 1160 vs. 960)
H0: The puller (first player) will regain hate after 1 Dispel
H1: The puller (first player) will not regain hate after 1 DIspel
The result here is pretty interesting. It shows that enmity (TE) is NOT reset when a player without hate zones. The time taken to zone was only a couple of seconds again. This means that if you're looking to get an enmity reset while zoning, you must be the target the mob is currently after or you will get no effect (assuming time is a non-factor - immediate re-zone).
We'll try 1 last test about zoning for a special type of case - "zoning" into the same zone - example of this is using Teleport-Mea while already in the Tahrongi Canyon.
Conclusions
"Zoning" while currently NOT at the top of the hate list will not cause a full enmity reset.
"Zoning" causes a the removal of the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
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Test 21C
Does "zoning" into the same area while currently at the top of the hate list cause an enmity reset?
H0: "Zoning" into the same zone while at the top of the hate list does NOT cause a enmity reset.
H1: "Zoning" into the same zone while at the top of the hate list does cause a enmity reset.
Testing Setup:
- 3 level 75 members, 2 with access to Cure, and a 3rd with Teleport-Mea (WHM36+)
- Testing occurs in Tahrongi Canyon near the Teleport-Mea Telepoint.
- Use a non-casting monster - we chose Canyon Rarab.
- One player pulls with Dispel (any spell works) (CE = 320+200)
- Second player Cures the puller for 0 HP twice (CE = 2)
- Have the 3rd player in party, the one with Teleport-Mea, use Mea on the player with hate
- Make sure to position the second player to be OUT OF RANGE of the Teleport spell.
- Note with the mob does once the Teleport spell hits.
- If enmity was reset, and the second player will now have hate (mob stays put)
- If enmity was not reset, and the puller (first player) will keep hate (mob runs for the player at Telepoint)
H0: The puller (first player) will keep hate after zoning, and the mob will run towards him.
H1: The puller (first player) will not keep hate, and the mob will remain still and attack the second player.
This is a pretty obscure situation, but it's still pretty interesting. If you "zone" into the same zone, it doesn't affect enmity or the hate list in any way - it's the equivalent of warping to another point in the zone. This is pretty funny to try since the mob will run across the zone after you. Normal mobs would probably lose hate at some point, but I imagine an NM would go across map.
Conclusions
"Zoning" into the same area while currently at the top of the hate list will NOT cause a full enmity reset.
"Zoning" into the same area will NOT remove the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
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Does "zoning" into a new area while currently at the top of the hate list cause an enmity reset?
H0: "Zoning" while at the top of the hate list does NOT cause a enmity reset.
H1: "Zoning" while at the top of the hate list does cause a enmity reset.
Testing Setup:
- 2 level 75 members, both with access to Cure.
- Testing needs to occur near a "zone" - we chose just outside Port Windurst in West Sarutabaruta
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- One player pulls with Dispel (any spell works) (CE = 320+200)
- Second player Cures the puller for 0 HP twice (CE = 2)
- Both players move to the zone, making sure the mob does not despawn or lose hate (do this slowly)
- Have the puller (who currently has hate) zone - mob will now go to the second player
- Have the puller move back into zone.
- Have this player then Cure the other player for 0 HP
- If enmity was reset, CE will be 1, and the second player will still retain hate.
- If enmity was not reset, CE will be 521, and the puller will regain hate.
H0: The puller (first player) will regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
H1: The puller (first player) will not regain hate after 1 Cure for 0 HP
The result here shows that enmity is reset when the player with hate zones. The time taken to zone was only a couple of seconds. Now we'll see if the same is true if someone were to zone without hate.
Conclusions
"Zoning" while currently at the top of the hate list will cause an enmity reset (TE reset).
"Zoning" causes a the removal of the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
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Test 21B
Does "zoning" into a new area while currently NOT at the top of the hate list cause an enmity reset?
H0: "Zoning" while not at the top of the hate list does NOT cause a enmity reset.
H1: "Zoning" while not at the top of the hate list does cause a enmity reset.
Testing Setup:
- 2 level 75 members, both with access to Cure.
- Testing needs to occur near a "zone" - we chose just outside Port Windurst in West Sarutabaruta
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta
- One player pulls with DIspel twice (CE = 640+200)
- Second player uses Dispel 3 times on the mob (CE = 960)
- Both players move to the zone, making sure the mob does not despawn or lose hate (do this slowly)
- Make sure the second player has hate before zoning - there is a significant VE component to pulling
- Have the puller who pulled (CE = 840) (player without hate) zone.
- Have the player zone back in.
- Have this player then Dispel the mob.
- If enmity was reset, CE will be 320, and the second player will still retain hate (CE 320 vs. 960)
- If enmity was not reset, CE will be 1160, and the original puller will regain hate (CE 1160 vs. 960)
H0: The puller (first player) will regain hate after 1 Dispel
H1: The puller (first player) will not regain hate after 1 DIspel
The result here is pretty interesting. It shows that enmity (TE) is NOT reset when a player without hate zones. The time taken to zone was only a couple of seconds again. This means that if you're looking to get an enmity reset while zoning, you must be the target the mob is currently after or you will get no effect (assuming time is a non-factor - immediate re-zone).
We'll try 1 last test about zoning for a special type of case - "zoning" into the same zone - example of this is using Teleport-Mea while already in the Tahrongi Canyon.
Conclusions
"Zoning" while currently NOT at the top of the hate list will not cause a full enmity reset.
"Zoning" causes a the removal of the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
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Test 21C
Does "zoning" into the same area while currently at the top of the hate list cause an enmity reset?
H0: "Zoning" into the same zone while at the top of the hate list does NOT cause a enmity reset.
H1: "Zoning" into the same zone while at the top of the hate list does cause a enmity reset.
Testing Setup:
- 3 level 75 members, 2 with access to Cure, and a 3rd with Teleport-Mea (WHM36+)
- Testing occurs in Tahrongi Canyon near the Teleport-Mea Telepoint.
- Use a non-casting monster - we chose Canyon Rarab.
- One player pulls with Dispel (any spell works) (CE = 320+200)
- Second player Cures the puller for 0 HP twice (CE = 2)
- Have the 3rd player in party, the one with Teleport-Mea, use Mea on the player with hate
- Make sure to position the second player to be OUT OF RANGE of the Teleport spell.
- Note with the mob does once the Teleport spell hits.
- If enmity was reset, and the second player will now have hate (mob stays put)
- If enmity was not reset, and the puller (first player) will keep hate (mob runs for the player at Telepoint)
H0: The puller (first player) will keep hate after zoning, and the mob will run towards him.
H1: The puller (first player) will not keep hate, and the mob will remain still and attack the second player.
This is a pretty obscure situation, but it's still pretty interesting. If you "zone" into the same zone, it doesn't affect enmity or the hate list in any way - it's the equivalent of warping to another point in the zone. This is pretty funny to try since the mob will run across the zone after you. Normal mobs would probably lose hate at some point, but I imagine an NM would go across map.
Conclusions
"Zoning" into the same area while currently at the top of the hate list will NOT cause a full enmity reset.
"Zoning" into the same area will NOT remove the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
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Difference Between Hate List and TE Storage
Test 20, which in my mind is the most important of the tests shown in this post, makes the distinction between the TE storage component of hate and the hate list itself. The "hate list" and the storage of TE values are actually separate. This idea is shown clearly when a player can log off then log back in and retain his TE, yet be removed from the hate list, causing an awkward situation where the player with hate does not have the highest TE.
Below, I give a hypothetical table of how I would currently model the hate mechanics as the game would see it. There are 4 counters the game probably keeps track up regarding enmity - Cumulative Enmity (CE), Volatile Enmity (VE), Total Enmity (TE), and the "Hate Counter" (HC) (a 1 for Active, a 0 for Inactive).
In this hypothetical example, the BLM has just logged off then logged back on. He still retains the highest TE, but since he is inactive on the "hate counter", he's not on the hate list yet, so the PLD/NIN still has hate. If the BLM were to perform an action, say a Stun, he would immediately be placed back on the hate list (HC=1), and would take back hate for having the highest TE.
The point of this example is to show the function of the "hate counter" (HC) in the new model. It is important to note this due to the possible exceptions of zoning, logging off, and even dying.
Test 20, which in my mind is the most important of the tests shown in this post, makes the distinction between the TE storage component of hate and the hate list itself. The "hate list" and the storage of TE values are actually separate. This idea is shown clearly when a player can log off then log back in and retain his TE, yet be removed from the hate list, causing an awkward situation where the player with hate does not have the highest TE.
Below, I give a hypothetical table of how I would currently model the hate mechanics as the game would see it. There are 4 counters the game probably keeps track up regarding enmity - Cumulative Enmity (CE), Volatile Enmity (VE), Total Enmity (TE), and the "Hate Counter" (HC) (a 1 for Active, a 0 for Inactive).
| Player | CE | VE | TE | HC |
| PLD/NIN | 10,000 | 5,000 | 15,000 | 1 |
| PLD/WAR | 2,000 | 6,000 | 8.000 | 1 |
| RNG | 5,000 | 8,000 | 13,000 | 1 |
| BLM | 10,000 | 5,500 | 15,500 | 0 |
| BRD | 10,000 | 0 | 10,000 | 1 |
| WHM | 6,000 | 6,000 | 12,000 | 1 |
In this hypothetical example, the BLM has just logged off then logged back on. He still retains the highest TE, but since he is inactive on the "hate counter", he's not on the hate list yet, so the PLD/NIN still has hate. If the BLM were to perform an action, say a Stun, he would immediately be placed back on the hate list (HC=1), and would take back hate for having the highest TE.
The point of this example is to show the function of the "hate counter" (HC) in the new model. It is important to note this due to the possible exceptions of zoning, logging off, and even dying.
________________________________________
________________________________________
Conclusions
As always, for those not interested in the testing procedures, I'll outline the conclusions of the tests done in this post. There is one piece of new terminology outlined in the post - the HC, or "hate counter".
THF Abilities - Collaborator and Accomplice
- The maximum distance at which the THF abilities Collaborator and Accomplice work at is 20.6'.
- Only the distance of the THF user relative to the mob matters - target distance plays no role.
Distinction Between Hate List and TE Storage
- It is possible to have the highest TE of any player, yet not be the mob's target.
- The "Hate List" is not simply a list of players and their TE - it is separate from the TE counter.
- A mob chooses targets based on who has the highest TE of the players on the hate list.
Effect of "Zoning" on TE Storage and Hate List Counter (HC)
- "Zoning" while currently at the top of the hate list will cause an enmity reset (TE reset).
- "Zoning" while currently NOT at the top of the hate list will not cause a full enmity reset.
- "Zoning" causes a the removal of the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
- "Zoning" into the same area while currently at the top of the hate list will NOT cause an enmity reset.
- "Zoning" into the same area will NOT remove the person from the "hate list" counter (a "hate reset").
In addition to the continued testing such as those seen above, I just want to, again, place some focus on the continuously updated Enmity Table, which has undergone some major changes in look and sorting. The lists are not only sorted by job now, but are also available in Japanese now as well. While some jobs are fully completed or nearly completed, there are a couple needing a great deal of work still, such as DNC and BLU jobs.
Any suggestions to future tests or the pointing out of flaws in the testing of any section are welcomed as always.
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Pic of the Day
Warning:
You may find the following 2 pics disturbing. Actually, if you don't, there's something wrong with you.
Slaut's birthday present to Senrez....
Let's top that one with a RL FFXI pic...
http://blmperseus.exblog.jp/
WTF
Drama Thread of the Day
Instead of giving a drama thread, I thought I'd change up the pace here. A couple people last week PMed me about starting their own journals and how to gain readers. This is a really difficult thing to answer since a lot of it is just personality and then lots of luck, but I thought I'd give examples of LJs I happen to enjoy reading about FFXI - they range from the informational, to the funny, to the great designs, or just the wide popularity.
Here are my top 5 personal favorite LJs or blogs to read, excluding anyone in my own LS. No one here has asked for a plug or anything, these are just my personal favorites. Ranked in no particular order, although they are numbered... Again, no one asked for a plug! These are just my opinions. I sort of put the defining features of each in red just to sort of differentiate them since I can't really rank them.
(1) Air's Museum
This is a JP blog or site, so it may be hard to navigate if you don't know a bit of Japanese. This is the home of the original Salvage database. When Salvage came out, he was the first to document the initial findings. His blog has been hugely popular since - nearing about 2.5 million hits... on a FFXI site. Probably the most viewed personally handled FFXI site on the net.
For anyone looking to make something for pure hits, you want to do what this guy does. He has a number of extremely well documented databases - the most famous one being Salvage, but also for Dynamis and other events. You get a lot of return hits for things like that. May be a bit difficult to do nowadays for English speakers due to the popularity of Wiki, but it's still possible if you do something people are interested in. His blog is pretty cool, too.
(2) Maiev's StarOnion
I love this one for a number of reasons - professional layout (eye candy totally counts), constant updating, and the extremely well linked portals. Unlike a lot of blogs which write long entries (I think mine may take the cake on length...), Maiev focuses on short little blurbs then may just link you for more information. Very good concept and extremely well done and maintained. Layout is just beautiful.
(3) Mifaco's LJ
Great example of how you can write a successful LJ without spending a heep of time on things like thesis length entries or detailed artwork. Mifaco's LJ is the most hilarious FFXI related site I've ever seen and probably the closest thing to an actual blog of the list. Just uses good old fashion humor and hyperbole with a FFXI twist mixed in his rantings. Writes with obvious knowledge of the game and it's issues, but in such a way that makes you remember this is just a game and to not take things too seriously. Some posts are just asking for someone taking it too seriously to attempt to flame him, but that's the brilliance of the concept in my opinion.
He's also the guy that started the hilarious "Paralyze can proc on WS!" debacle on Wiki, where one of the Admins claimed (incorrectly) that Paralyze can proc on a WS. He called her out on this and hilarity ensued as she blocked the page from editing the correct information in. I imagine he's absolutely hilarious in game.
(4) Rukenshin's LJ
He only updates like 3 times a year, but this is still one of the best informational and fun to read LJs out there. Really the original ultra popular blog and a worthy of a BG meme. Great pictures, incredible detail and strategy (first to outline fire resistance on Wyrms for instance). I base a good deal of things I do on this LJ from things he did on his. It's probably cliche just to name his blog since it's so popular but meh, if I didn't list it, I'd probably get hordes of random people asking me why I didn't list it.
(5) Letticia's Blog
Another JP blog. I put this one up for 2 reasons. First, she's a fellow Odin player in a really friendly, and skilled, HNM LS called "Jokers" - arguably the 'best' HNM LS on Odin - obviously I think differently but I'm biased. The kinds of things they do are interesting on their own - for instance, they were the first group to record a LAC victory (we were the first to record an NA victory, and with under 10).
The other reason is obvious if you just look at the blog itself. Mandragora Clock!! The mandragora clock alone would make my top 5. Great artwork and creative design. I check this blog sometimes just to see what changes she made to the layout. She changes things quite often. Really love it.
Advice
There are quite a few blogs I roam around reading so it's really impossible to mention everyone's. I sort of picked these out as they have defining characteristics that make it unique and attractive. I'm pretty sure these are all really popular already anyways, so I don't feel like I'm really "plugging" anyone.
For anyone that asked me on how to start a successful Blog, my best advice is to see what makes these successful and gather some ideas on what best fits your personality. If you're a lamer who's good at technical information like me, you can try to mimic more of what I do; if you're really artistic or good with web design, consider something more towards Maeiv's or Letticia's. Some guys are just interesting people and they can just "blog" normally without any real preparation and get popular. There's always an element of luck, though.
This is a JP blog or site, so it may be hard to navigate if you don't know a bit of Japanese. This is the home of the original Salvage database. When Salvage came out, he was the first to document the initial findings. His blog has been hugely popular since - nearing about 2.5 million hits... on a FFXI site. Probably the most viewed personally handled FFXI site on the net.
For anyone looking to make something for pure hits, you want to do what this guy does. He has a number of extremely well documented databases - the most famous one being Salvage, but also for Dynamis and other events. You get a lot of return hits for things like that. May be a bit difficult to do nowadays for English speakers due to the popularity of Wiki, but it's still possible if you do something people are interested in. His blog is pretty cool, too.
(2) Maiev's StarOnion
I love this one for a number of reasons - professional layout (eye candy totally counts), constant updating, and the extremely well linked portals. Unlike a lot of blogs which write long entries (I think mine may take the cake on length...), Maiev focuses on short little blurbs then may just link you for more information. Very good concept and extremely well done and maintained. Layout is just beautiful.
(3) Mifaco's LJ
Great example of how you can write a successful LJ without spending a heep of time on things like thesis length entries or detailed artwork. Mifaco's LJ is the most hilarious FFXI related site I've ever seen and probably the closest thing to an actual blog of the list. Just uses good old fashion humor and hyperbole with a FFXI twist mixed in his rantings. Writes with obvious knowledge of the game and it's issues, but in such a way that makes you remember this is just a game and to not take things too seriously. Some posts are just asking for someone taking it too seriously to attempt to flame him, but that's the brilliance of the concept in my opinion.
He's also the guy that started the hilarious "Paralyze can proc on WS!" debacle on Wiki, where one of the Admins claimed (incorrectly) that Paralyze can proc on a WS. He called her out on this and hilarity ensued as she blocked the page from editing the correct information in. I imagine he's absolutely hilarious in game.
(4) Rukenshin's LJ
He only updates like 3 times a year, but this is still one of the best informational and fun to read LJs out there. Really the original ultra popular blog and a worthy of a BG meme. Great pictures, incredible detail and strategy (first to outline fire resistance on Wyrms for instance). I base a good deal of things I do on this LJ from things he did on his. It's probably cliche just to name his blog since it's so popular but meh, if I didn't list it, I'd probably get hordes of random people asking me why I didn't list it.
(5) Letticia's Blog
Another JP blog. I put this one up for 2 reasons. First, she's a fellow Odin player in a really friendly, and skilled, HNM LS called "Jokers" - arguably the 'best' HNM LS on Odin - obviously I think differently but I'm biased. The kinds of things they do are interesting on their own - for instance, they were the first group to record a LAC victory (we were the first to record an NA victory, and with under 10).
The other reason is obvious if you just look at the blog itself. Mandragora Clock!! The mandragora clock alone would make my top 5. Great artwork and creative design. I check this blog sometimes just to see what changes she made to the layout. She changes things quite often. Really love it.
Advice
There are quite a few blogs I roam around reading so it's really impossible to mention everyone's. I sort of picked these out as they have defining characteristics that make it unique and attractive. I'm pretty sure these are all really popular already anyways, so I don't feel like I'm really "plugging" anyone.
For anyone that asked me on how to start a successful Blog, my best advice is to see what makes these successful and gather some ideas on what best fits your personality. If you're a lamer who's good at technical information like me, you can try to mimic more of what I do; if you're really artistic or good with web design, consider something more towards Maeiv's or Letticia's. Some guys are just interesting people and they can just "blog" normally without any real preparation and get popular. There's always an element of luck, though.
________________________________________
________________________________________
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Comments
I'm just going to upgrade Aegis and transfer to Fairy, that'll really mess with all of you.
-Payu
I had to choose between casting time and /recast time. I chose casting time because it directly effects the VE gain or loss efficiency (eg. there is a big difference between 2 spells with same VE gain but 1 casts at 8 second and another 1 second).
-Suiram
I'm actually thinking distance from the mob to player may factor in as well. I think what ever the reasoning the game uses for the HC=1,TE=0 situation, it would be similar or the same to the HC=1,TE>0 situation. In those situation where TE is more than 0, it seems to have something to do with proximity, although it's sort of random sometimes.
Also, the HC model I went over in the post doesn't fully describe linking and aggro I think. When you link or aggro something, you definitely have no enmity but the mob goes for you (TE=0, supposedly HC=1); but if someone else yanks the mob off you with like provoke, then say dies, the mob does not go back to the link/aggro target. So it's like you have hate due to link/aggro, but if the mob ever gets provoked into fighting, you won't be tracked back.
I think this is more a mob targeting issue though, not a strictly hate list issue. The order of the hate list is still fixed, it's just the mob isn't choosing the person at the highest spot to cast.
20.6 is a weird number, I believe it also happens to also be the max casting range for small mobs. With a larger target, you can cast from further away (see: 24'ish for dahaks, KB, etc...) [you can also melee from a slightly larger range, fyi]
I think the "maximum distance" value is actually calculated as 20 + radius(target). So for big mobs, the maximum distance for hate reset due to collaborator should be slightly larger.
I think another explanation might be that it is 20' + the character's difference. I think the max range you can cure someone from is 20.6 or 20.7 as well, so it could be the character radius or the mob radius.
-Ajmage-
I'm the main tank of my current guild, so I found many similar topics about threat/hate/enmity in the 2 games, however, I'm going to be talking about HC, so,taking example from an end-game fight in Black Temple:
Gurtogg Blooboil
Basically the boss is a 2 phase fight. It has a tank and spank fight, then followed by a phase where he fixates on someone and the entire raid's actions does not generate threat/enmity, until the phase is over.
This fight is very sensitive on enmity, we use 3 tanks to manage threat since he does a lot of differently threat reducing abilities. Anyways, when the phase changes to phase 2 and then back to phase 1, if I'm at the top of the threat list, and he goes back and attack a previous tank that was tanking him previously/holding hate previously, I need to hit it once, and it'll immediately come towards me.
Unlike FFXI, WoW has no threat decay.
Anyways, I'd just thought it'd be interesting to share. You might like to take a look at the following to see if there are any similarities to use in your future tests.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat
I'll read over how it works in WoW and see if I can't get any ideas for future testing in here.
The way I've laid out the HC in this post is actually somewhat flawed based on certain cases you can get yourself into in FFXI, so maybe something in WoW will jump out at me.
You've got so much data, it's hard to let it all soak in, I have some questions for you...
Does a full resist to a spell garner as much as a full effect does? Like say a drk75 vs. a nin/drk in the same enmity levels?
And.. I know that you test with no enmity gear or merits, but do you believe that enmity affects the hate of the action (Voke, flash, stun, etc) or just the decay of hate from the action? I always assumed it affected the action itself, but my +26 to enmity could just immediately slow the decay enough that my provoke only seems stronger.