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Enmity Testing (Part I)

Overview

In the post 'Modeling Enmity', I went over a possible "ball-park" method of looking at enmity in this game which was simple, easy to understand, and plausible for a good number of situations seen in the game.  While easier to understand, and I think a better model to base things on than the JP Wiki version of things, it is still not what actually happens in this game.  At the time, I felt it was not possible to fully understand what was going on regarding enmity; however, I think this may actually be possible now.

In this post, I want to lay out how testing, and proving, how enmity mechanics work in this game can be done.  Something like this is not immediately intuitive, so I will lay each concept out in an experimental test based on rejecting or accepting a "null hypothesis".  My hope is that these tests and findings will build upon each other, eventually leading to a full comprehension of enmity mechanics.

The first series of testing involves ideas that are incredibly basic - many of them are probably "no-brainers"; however, I felt that it was important to establish them, as they are the building blocks of harder to reach concepts.  Some of the initial findings were quite surprising and worth reading about I think - and the key idea is that these are all proven in easily reproducable, controlled tests.  Nothing about this post is anectodal. 

This post is going to involve a lot of scientific methodology and does not allow many opportunities for screenshots that are actually meaningful to the discussion.  Anything you see regarding pictures is probably going to be a chart or some screenshot I have taken from the testing that really adds little or no content (aka it's filler).

Enmity Testing (Part II)
Enmity Testing (Part III)
Enmity Testing (Part IV)
Enmity Testing (Part V)
Enmity Testing (Part VI)
Enmity Testing (Part VII)
Enmity Testing (Part VIII)
Enmity Testing (Part IX)

Enmity Table

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Questions to be Answered

These initial tests provide the foundation of all future testing, making these by far the most crucial.  That being said, most of the ideas that are 'proven' in these early tests are no-brainer ideas - they still have to be proven by an experimental test.  These early concepts I've chosen to focus on include...

      -  Does being attacked for 0 damage cause an enmity loss?
      -  Does evading an attack cause an enmity loss?
      -  Does evading an attack through Utsusemi Shadow loss cause an enmity loss?
      -  Does the distance at which the spell is cast from affect enmity gained by an action?
      -  Does the act of pulling grant an enmity increase to the puller?


While extremely basic, I think most people could not give you a really good answer to any of these other than the question on Utsusemi, which SE stated is supposed to be true.  The tests in these posts will answer these questions, although the later ones not fully.

These basic tests were chosen first for a few reasons.  It is very difficult to prevent hate loss if getting hit for 0 or evading causes a hate loss - the mob you are testing on will have to get attacks off unless you constantly bind or use worms to test.  Distance to cast was also important for similar reasons.  Really these tests form the basis on what can and cannot be done for the more complicated testing to be done later on; so while they may seem boring or mundane, they are incredibly important in validating the methods used in future tests.

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Test 1 

Does evading an attack or being attacked for 0 damage cause an enmity loss?

      H0Evading or taking 0 damage from an attack causes no enmity loss
      H1Evading or taking 0 damage from an attack does cause an enmity loss

Testing Setup:

- 3 level 75 members with Dispel (RDM/NIN x2, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- A puller character (3rd character) does not require specific enmity matches
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta

- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- No Utsusemi shadows can be active

- "Puller" pulls mob with Silence (a move causing no damage, but is known to grant less hate than Dispel)
- The 2 test characters move to the SAME DISTANCE from the monster, we chose 0.7 distance
- Both test characters, attempt to cast Dispel as close timing to each other as possible
- Wait for monster to attack and choose targets - duration chosen was 2 minute wait

      H0:  The target that initially took hate after both Dispels were cast will maintain hate throughout 
      H1The target that initially took hate after both Dispels were cast will NOT maintain hate throughout

Before discussing the result, it should be noted that second character to cast dispel on the target always took hate.  Why this occurred is not discussed in this test, this is a nice observation for future testing.  In this test, distance from mob is controlled, as is time for the most part.  

At this point, we have not shown that enmity decay over time exists or does not exist, so we must account for both possibilities.  It turns out that this tests works for both situations.  Obviously, if no natural enmity decay over time occurs, there is no issue.  If it does occur though, the fact that both casts happened near instantaneously would limit the decay difference.  Also, once both Dispels have been cast, assuming any decay works equally on both players, it would not, on its own, cause a shift in target, which was what was tested.

The results showed that the target never switched in the 2 minute period, after numerous misses and damage for 0 attacks.

Conclusion:

Evading or taking 0 damage from an attack causes no enmity loss

img451/7631/img20071029010735st2.png 

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Test 2

Does evading through Utsusemi Shadow loss cause an enmity loss?

      H0Evading an attack through Utsusemi causes no enmity loss
      H1Evading an attack through Utsusemi does cause an enmity loss

Testing Setup:

- 3 level 75 members with Dispel (RDM/NIN x2, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- A puller character (3rd character) does not require specific enmity matches
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta

- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be cast and active on both testing chacters prior to beginning

- "Puller" pulls mob with Silence (a move causing no damage, but is known to grant less hate than Dispel)
- The 2 test characters move to the SAME DISTANCE from the monster, we chose 0.7 distance
- Both test characters, attempt to cast Dispel as close timing to each other as possible
- Wait for monster to attack and choose targets - duration chosen was 2 minute wait

      H0:  The target that initially took hate after both Dispels were cast will NOT lose hate after Shadow Loss
      H1The target that initially took hate after both Dispels were cast will lose hate after Shadow Loss

This test was conducted in the EXACT same way as test 1, with the only exception being Utsusemi was pre-buffed in this test.  The result showed that no hate was lost for misses and attacks for 0; however, the instant a shadow was lost, the target immediately switched!  This shows that unlike evading and attacks for 0, shadow loss must cause some type of hate loss.  This is a good thing since SE claimed this to be true after one of it's updates.

Conclusion:

Evading an attack through use of Utsusemi Shadow Loss causes an enmity loss

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Test 3

Does the distance at which the spell is cast from affect enmity gained by an action?

      H0Distance at which the ability is used does not effect enmity gained
      H1Distance at which the ability is used does effect enmity gained

Testing Setup:

- 3 level 75 members with Dispel (RDM/NIN x2, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- A puller character (3rd character) does not require specific enmity matches
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta

- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place

- "Puller" pulls mob with Silence (a move causing no damage, but is known to grant less hate than Dispel)
- 1 test character moves to 0.0 distance from the monster, while the other moves to 20.0 distance
- Both test characters cast Dispel with close timing
- Run this same experiment twice - one where the 0.0 distance target uses Dispel first, then second
- Wait for monster to attack and choose targets - duration chosen was 2 minute wait

      H0:  The target that cast Dispel second will get and maintain hate regardless of distance cast in all cases
      H1The target that cast Dispel first will get hate at some point in time in ANY of the experiments

This test was conducted in the EXACT same way as test 1, with the only exception being the distance at which the spell was cast between the target and the player.  The result showed that the second player to cast Dispel always took hate and maintained it throughout - this was true whether the second player to cast was 0.0 distance away or 20.0 distance away - signifying that the distance you perform the action from does not affect the hate gained or possibly decayed in that 0'-20' range

This is a very important test to nail down since most tests we perform won't necessarily require someone with Distance Plug-in.  It is nice to control the distance used still anyways though.  It has been pointed out to me that most BSTs know that there is some fringe distance at which you can be away from a mob and not take hate from actions - this is true but whatever that fringe distance is, it is greater than 20'.  This test was more to make future tests easier rather than tackle the issue of where this fringe distance occurs.


Conclusion:

Distances between 0'-20' at which an action is used relative to the mob does not affect the hate gained

img141/9711/img20071028021405bd7.png 

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Test 4

Does the act of pulling generate an extra amount of enmity for the puller?

      H0:  
Pulling does not add an extra amount of enmity to the puller
      H1Pulling adds an extra amount of enmity to the puller

Testing Setup:

- 2 level 75 members with Dispel (RDM/NIN, BLM/RDM)
- 2 characters must have 0 enmity merits (+/-), be stripped of all gear, and have access to "distance plug-in"
- Use a "level 0" monster - we chose Bumblebee in West Sarutabaruta


- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage
- Utsusemi shadows must be off when this experiment takes place

- 2 characters cast Dispel at close times, but far apart enough to be discernable who cast first
- Distance from pulling is not taken into account due to the results of test 3
- Wait for monster to attack and choose targets - duration chosen was 2 minute wait

      H0:  
The 2nd player to cast Dispel will get and maintain hate 
      H1:
  The puller will get and maintain hate even though he cast first

This test was conducted in the EXACT same way as test 1, with the only exception being there was no initial 3rd charcter to pull.  The distance at which the initial casts were made were not factored in due to test 3 showing that distance an ability is used from relative to a mob does not affect the hate gained by an action.  This test questions whether a 3rd player acting as a 'puller' is even needed - if pulling doesn't grant extra hate and distance doesn't matter, the puller can be excluded from future tests.

The results showed that pulling a mob does actually generate some bonus hate!  If you do this test, you'll realize it's really the same thing as test 1 except 1 person performs the action of pulling the mob.  You'll find that the player that pulled it will maintain hate throughout - even though based on test 1, player 2 really should have had hate by virtue of casting 2nd.  This shows that the action of pulling grants a hate bonus.  Note that this test does not tell you how much of a bonus, only that one exists.

Conclusion:


The act of pulling grants an extra enmity bonus to the puller                   


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Is there Hate Decay or Not?

This is one of the big questions out there - however, I have failed to try to answer this at this point in time because these background tests are required as controls before such a test can be done correctly.  The problem with not asserting a hate decay exists or not is that these 4 early test results have to reach the same conclusion in both a model where hate decay exists and does not exist!  The way they are constructed, these 4 tests actually do reach the same conclusion whether or not decay over time occurs.

The reason this works comes down to the mechanics of test 1 - all other tests stem from changing 1 factor from the controlled test 1.  In this test, the second player to cast Dispel always took hate - this is true whether the casts were 0.1 seconds apart or 3 minutes apart.  We always tried to cast as close to each other as possible unless we were trying to prove a point - the easiest way we found was to just time our casts at the same time - since we had a BLM/RDM and RDM/NIN, the difference in fast cast allowed the RDM to always finish first.  You can really come up with 2 main arguments why the second caster always got hate from the same spell -

      1)  Hate decays, therefore the the player to cast first has decayed more hate than player 2 at all times

                    img147/1130/chart2eu3.png

            OR THE ALTNERATIVE...

      2)  No decay, so both players had a 'tie' in hate - in which case the more recent action gets priority


                    img132/4361/chart1dx1.png

This is what happens in our test 1 results - the hate mechanics after the spell is initially cast will not matter as long as the mechanics work the same for both players.  The important thing is not where exactly on the curve 1 person is, only which player is higher than the other.  The difficulty of enmity testing is you cannot measure the exact value of enmity, but only observe who has the most hate.

If, in test 1, we saw the opposite effect - i.e. the other player (the one that first cast the spell) eventually did get hate back from the second caster, we see that this alternative possible observation is covered in both models with and without hate decay; note that these graphs below do not model what the results and observations that test 1 showed, but shows that test 1 was ready to account for both scenarios (which it must to be a good test).  These graphs do accurately describe the 2 possible models for test 2 - the test showing Utsusemi loss does have a hate decrease.

      Model 1 (Enmity Decay Exists) - Loss of hate due to Utsusemi Loss causes player 1 to take back hate.

                    img456/3345/chart4am3.png

            OR THE ALTNERATIVE...


      Model 2 (No Enmity Decay) - Loss of hate due to Utsusemi Loss causes player 1 to take back hate.

                    img237/6408/chart3ox1.png

So again, both possible common models - hate decay exists, or does not exist, are fully covered in the way these tests are performed.  I've only drawn out charts for tests 1 and 2; however, tests 3 and 4 really follow the same methodolgy and I think you can work it out in your head pretty easily that the same would apply.


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Conclusions

To recap the conclusions found in these tests -

      1)  Getting attacked for 0 damage or evading an attack causes no enmity loss.
      2)  Dodging an attack using Utsusemi Shadows does cause an enmity loss.
      3)  Distance between 0'-20' relative to the mob at which an action is used does not affect enmity gained.
      4)  The act of pulling (first action) causes an enmity gain for the puller.


I found most of these results to be pretty much what I thought they would be except the 4th, which surprised me a bit.  Again, I don't there there is really anything novel in the testing gone over in these posts - they focus on extremely basic concepts.  However, these concepts have to be nailed down and PROVEN before we can really build an experimental test that proves anything more conceptually difficult.

There is really a long way to go from here in order to really comprehend how enmity really works.  I can tell you right now that some of the more complicated testing has resulted in very profound and new information.  This post and the tests in it really just provide the foundation for any future testing (it establishes what factors can be controlled and/or how to control them).

Supposedly, all 4 of these tests should work no matter what base spell you choose to use.  We chose Dispel; however, anything should work - Blind, Provoke, Flash, etc.  I would avoid anything that messes with mob action though like Gravity, Bind, Sleep, or Stun since we are basing observations on what the mob does.  Again, the key I want to stress about these tests is that they work in both a hate decay model and a non-hate decay model - this is and will become even more key later on.

Critique on the testing method is welcomed as they must be very sound in order for anyone to build upon their results later on.  The results of these tests will be called upon many times later on - in fact, I have already done so within just these 4 basic tests.  I will admit this post is very dry; however, for those who found this boring, I want to assure you that the results coming in the near future will pose very meaningful information on how people actually play this game, which is really the point of doing this.

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Pic of the Day

The post this time was really dry so I'll try to supplement by adding more pics this time around.  Just a random assortment of pics...

img505/5416/img20071027192843uk5.png 

Been a long time since we had an LBC win for the NA Salvage Group (after taking extended break off Salvage).

5 Man win with SAM SAM BRD RDM BLM

 
img340/5474/img20071023191517lf8.png

A really nasty low man KB fight where we almost wiped.  It actually dies of DoT mid-wipe.

Luckily there weren't that many LSs there due to conflicting King Camp times.

I was very surprised no one took it when it went yellow - I guess not everyone in HNM is out to get you.


img452/2537/img20071013193303id3.png 

Fry being a jerk about the fact I only have 1 job leveled (and use the 'wrong' sub).


img140/3549/img20071013133330di7.png 

Me just messing around with a BLM/RDM Fenrir Solo (I think it's very possible).



Drama Thread of the Day

http://bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=23566&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=300

A very good Einherjar thread turned drama thread on BG.

It's amazing how many egos there are on BG - it wasn't even that heated a debate at the start, but some of the posters just post the most egotistical crap that it inevitably leads to drama sometimes.  I don't really mind the ego trip, but my only problem is it's near impossible to tell if someone actually deserves it since more than likely you won't be on the same server.  I know there are players on my own server that post there with a huge ego, and others let them get away with it simply because they don't know any better that it's all a front.  I don't want to call anyone out in particular but from a 3rd person point of view, it looks really retarded.  I guess it's amusing.



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Comments

( 26 comments — Leave a comment )
akroma_ffangel
Oct. 30th, 2007 01:12 am (UTC)
Duplicate hate actions seems to always work the way you noted dispels work. The 2nd provoke shortly after the first always wins hate on say, a HNM pull, or if Tanks are at very similar hate levels during a fight.
kanican
Oct. 30th, 2007 01:17 am (UTC)
The 2 models I described both lead to that same conclusion. It's actually really important since different moves do actually have different decay properties after going through some testing, so the test has to be able to account for all types.

BTW that had to be the fastest first comment I've ever seen... that couldn't have been more than 3 minutes after I released the post to 'public'. I didn't even finish minor editing yet haha.
akroma_ffangel
Oct. 30th, 2007 02:37 am (UTC)
Heh, I just did an update myself and check on friends page. I have a habit of doing this people though. I can't spell so I didn't notice your mistakes :D
akroma_ffangel
Oct. 30th, 2007 02:41 am (UTC)
I think there is hate decay. Play RDM/NIN and stop casting actions and see how far behind on hate you will get. I am positive there is a hate cap, so there is no reason that losing shadows will put you as far behind a co-tank as stoping actions for a mere 30sec will do.
tacrozar
Oct. 30th, 2007 03:18 am (UTC)
If the 2nd caster in test 1 were to wear -X enmity, I wonder at what number X would the bee not look at the 2nd caster. Hmm...
kanican
Oct. 30th, 2007 03:36 am (UTC)
We've done this already, I just haven't posted results because they are too confusing. You can try it if you want, but I promise you it's absolutely nothing like you would expect.
tacrozar
Oct. 30th, 2007 04:56 am (UTC)
Really I'd be interested in reading it. I have no friends who are patient enough to sit through and test this stuff. Most of my experience with wacky hate comes with current enmity gear (aka normal tank gear) which obviously skews the result. I also have +enmity merits so... that won't help at all in testing.

My experience says that there are times when the lower enmity built tank/kiter will have hate but in the long run, the one with the higher enmity will ultimately win out. I think the test where the person who "pulls it" first gets initial hate sort of answers this anecdotal evidence that I have.
tacrozar
Oct. 30th, 2007 05:06 am (UTC)
Actually I thought about a possible way to test decay.

Two people. Same test condition as 2. Assume B's cast landed 2nd. From Test 1, B should have initial hate. So if B loses a shadow, the monster will go to A. What happens if A loses a shadow? two shadow? X shadows? Will it go back to B?


Another thing I've noticed, on a long pull, the monster will lose aggro... eventually. Is that equivalent to "losing initial hate" as shown in test 4?
kanican
Oct. 30th, 2007 05:41 am (UTC)
You have to keep things EXTREMELY simplistic at this point. In those 2 paragraphs there are probably at least 10+ unknowns unaccounted for from losing aggro due to distance changes to the amount of hate a shadow sheds. I couldn't even begin to come up with a quantitative answer to anything. Everything in this post is qualitative, that is I only check who has hate after actions completed.

Decay does exist - I can give that one away. All you have to do to see this is have the puller, then 2 RDM/WARs. Have them stand at the same distance and 1 Dispels, then other vokes. The voker will get hate but lose it after about 23 seconds. Have that Dispel player just sit there and have the Voker voke about 50 more times - you'll realize the Dispeler will still have hate if you wait long enough.

Decay definitely does exist, however, due to the complicated nature of adding a time decay factor, it is difficult to nail down HOW it decays - is it linear? Does all of it decay or just some of it? Is it random? Do all spells decay, and if so at different rates? The reason behind all these early tests was to establish enough controls in order to go about performing the harder tests like nailing down the nature of hate decay. I think the fact it exists isn't argued.

(Anonymous)
Oct. 30th, 2007 10:09 am (UTC)
I want to thank you for the effort you've put into testing things like this. Having two tank jobs myself, I always love to have this kind of information.

I was curious about the use of blm/rdm and rdm/nin in the testing of hate. You may have already "debunked" this through some testing but i'll throw it out there anyway. Perhaps its something to add to your list of "no brainers" as something you can say for sure doesn't affect hate. I've heard some people say that main job war provoking generations more hate than a /war provoking. Since I've never had access to a 75 war, I can't even say from experience if this is true or not.

I bring it up because you used rdm/nin and blm/rdm in your comparative enmity testing. You said that blm/rdm was always second to cast. It might be nice to just get this off the list as a possible variable.

I'm also really interested in hearing the results of your test with -1 enmity. I'm sure this is where the real juicy bits of info will be so I look forward to your next blog post. Keep up the good work.

-Elipse
kanican
Oct. 30th, 2007 03:24 pm (UTC)
Yea we alternated this so I would normally cast second, but I do cast first in other tests - the 2nd player regardless of job gets hate in that type of situation. Sub and actual LVL are 2 possible variables. I have not tried anything but 75 characters thusfar. Sub I know doesn't matter.

I have done some +/- enmity work, but right now the results are too confusing to put up so I'm saving it until enough is known about what happens without enmity gear.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 31st, 2007 03:57 pm (UTC)
distance doesn't matter until you reach 30' i think that's the point at which you generate no enmity, very convenient as a bst for example, or a rdm using convert. feel free to check that value, it's obviously very easy to test.

there are some tests you can do with distance.dll and zones with plenty of space to run that show what causes you to lose hate on a pulled mob. beware of doing it on scent tracking mobs in zones with water you can cross.

i've always attributed 1 point of hypothetical enmity to the first player to act on the mob (ie. the puller) but thinking about it more carefully i'd probably give it a slightly higher value.

good job!

ciz.
kanican
Oct. 31st, 2007 04:08 pm (UTC)
The hate you get from pulling is a lot stronger than the bare minimum. At this point in time, I would be very careful to avoid any type of quantitative number though. The reason other models really fail thus far is that they jump to throwing out numbers when they cannot verify its accuracy.

Numbers are nice to think about but they are hard to come by. I don't want to make that type of mistake so I don't want assign any type of number yet. There are ways to get an accurate number I think but you have to go through the basic testing first in order to establish enough basic prinicples.
(Anonymous)
Oct. 31st, 2007 05:11 pm (UTC)
assigning values is just something i've done for convenience, if i was developing a framework like you are i would attempt to quantify it in terms of a base action (ie. ratios like 2 dispels = 1 provoke) and of course this is beyond the scope of what you are currently testing.
i absolutely understand you have to take it slowly to build a good model.

the deaggro thing was just in response to an above comment, it's not even relevant to enmity because you can't use it unless doing some solo where you deaggro the mob for very short downtime during the fight (preventing regen with DoT).
the distance at which you generate no enmity has to be suffixed to "distance doesn't matter" though for accuracy.
kanican
Oct. 31st, 2007 04:09 pm (UTC)
I also don't intend to mess with distance and deaggroing for awhile. The stuff I'll go over is probably going to be really basic and miss a lot of 'no brainer' things. This is because they are hard to prove in trial, but easy to see ancedotally.
basster
Oct. 31st, 2007 05:39 pm (UTC)
ZOMG naked TaruTarus! j/k Good Job on your tests. Nice to read your LJ!
(Anonymous)
Nov. 3rd, 2007 06:54 pm (UTC)
Love the post and what you're doing here. I hope one day I can refer people to this post to disprove their wrong beliefs about enmity and hate control =).

I do have one question though, and I'm not a mage, so I have less experience with this:

"- All characters must have either Stoneskin or Phalanx buffed prior to starting to ensure 0 damage"

I always thought that when your stoneskin took damage, you lost enmity just the same as if you were hit for that much damage. I could easily be wrong, but what do those monsters hit you for without the stoneskin and phalanx?



Oh and when you do build up off of these basic ideas, could you address whether or not you lose more hate depending on how much enmity you are wearing when you take hit? e.g. You take a 300 dmg hit when you're wearing like +20 enmity vs. taking a 300 dmg hit wearing +0 enmity?

Thanks!
kanican
Nov. 3rd, 2007 07:55 pm (UTC)
It actually usually does 0 damage with no gear, no phalanx2, and no stoneskin on (talking about tiny mandragoras and bumblebees). If you go to like river crabs in Sarutabaruta, those do actually do 1-2 damage sometimes. 0 damage is just 0 damage though I'm pretty sure. It's not hard to test this out later on if people have qualms over it.

I'm not really going to bother with damage or enmity +/- gear at this point. I have a pretty solid idea on what to test first, and those 2 are near the end I think. Things will be a lot more clear next post I'm pretty sure, when things that aren't intuitive are proven/explained.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 12th, 2007 08:28 am (UTC)
CHR
Does CHR affect hate decay in any way?
(Anonymous)
Nov. 13th, 2007 03:37 am (UTC)
This is an absolutely amazing post; borderline thesis material! Thank you, so much. I was wondering, as a tank, what the most effective way to gain hate is? I tank nin/drk, and I noticed that most of the spells we use for hate are CE. Would it be beneficial to use more spells with VE as well to create a combination of the two? Also, is there a way to determine how much hate is lost with every point of damage taken?

I have always been told nin/drk pulls more hate because of souleater's ability to reach the hate cap so quickly-not to mention the hate available to PLD co-tanks-but after reading this, I'm not sure nin/drk would pull more hate then nin/rdm. How much hate can souleater pull? How much hate does one unit of damage dealt deal under normal circumstances? Does magic damage pull more/less hate?
(Anonymous)
Nov. 13th, 2007 02:59 pm (UTC)
Flash pull stronger then voke immedietly after. ~Dmhlucky
The act of pulling definatly has an additional Hate effect. While farming with a friend, i would use Flash to pull, and he, provoke. Any time i got to a Goobbue first and flashed it before he voked it, i would keep hate until our emnity differences kicked in. Based on the numbers you have provided, Voke should override and the war shoudl get hate, but this was never the case. Due to our emnity, my -13 and his +12 i lost hate after a small Amt of time, however flash will out hate Voke if used to pull, hope this can help your data somehow ^^.
kanican
Nov. 13th, 2007 08:38 pm (UTC)
Re: Flash pull stronger then voke immedietly after. ~Dmhlucky
You cannot pull using one of the 2 characters you're testing on - it messes up the results.

Flash and Stun are around 1200VE though, we just haven't nailed down the exact number yet so haven't posted it.
(Anonymous)
Sep. 23rd, 2009 04:23 pm (UTC)
Re: Flash pull stronger then voke immedietly after. ~Dmhlucky
where I can get the windower you use, please sendme alink
(Anonymous)
Nov. 13th, 2007 07:59 pm (UTC)
You've gotten me very curious about BLU tanking now.

I can't test this because I have enmity merits... but looking at the values of Dispel and Sleeps from RDM, I've very curious as to the enmity generated from BLU sleeps and dispels, and possibly other BLU spells.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 14th, 2007 12:27 am (UTC)
If well equipped, BLU can tank. I tanked Jormy once with a BLU/NIN. He did a fine job of holding hate. He just needed to work on avoiding damage and the blink tanking technique.
(Anonymous)
Nov. 14th, 2007 09:37 am (UTC)
Brilliant
Fantastic info.
I would like to see a test to confirm that there is no difference between taking 0 damage because the mob can't hurt you, and taking 0 damage because of stoneskin. In the stoneskin case the mob is 'causing damage' to the stoneskin isn't it?
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